Uncomfortable with a good friend's opinion on Ukraine

[LifeIsWhat]

Of course he is entitled to his opinion, and I fully respect that. However, I am still shocked to learn that he thinks that, It is pointless for the Ukraine people to flight, they should just surrender and wait for the US and NATO to join the war. What's the point to fight a losing war. He made is clear that he would run away and let others to fight.

My argument s are:

1. why would other people flight for you if you are not prepared at least try to defend your own country? It is only nature to defend your home when enemy broke in and bluntly invaded your country.
2. Many things, from a toothache to a war, it is better to kill it at early stage, the price might seem high now, but leave it later will cost you much much more.

Anyway, I am quite surprised and disappointed...

[quote Gingerbreadman1972]@LifeIsWhat can you not understand why people are upset with what you've said? You may not mean it to come across like it has, but by criticising your friend, it sounds like you are criticising the people who have chosen to leave Ukraine. These people are fleeing in fear of their lives, with no knowledge of whether they'll be able to go home, see their families again, it must be terrifying. And whether it was meant or not, it sounds like you think they are wrong to do that. I don't know if that's how you mean for it to come across, but that is how I and I think others have interpreted it. Hence comments about you not knowing how you'd feel in thst situation.

I think the President is an absolute hero, the guy wasn't even in politics until very recently, life would have been much easier if he'd have stayed a comedian but in all my awe for him and others who have stayed to fight, I dont think the people leaving are doing anything wrong, and i have no idea what I would do in thst situation because I am fortunate that I've never had to make such an awful decision.[/quote]
Very well said

I completely agree with everything you’ve said in this post

@NobodysGonnaKnow
I don’t like it either , but Russia are pretty much holding us all to ransom

As I said , my opinion, no need for profanity.

[quote Velvian]@NobodysGonnaKnow, how do you think fighting Russia is going to turn out? Do you think conscription 16 YOs to fight one of the most powerful armies in the world is a good idea?[/quote]
Where have you got that info from? No one is conscripting 16-year-olds.

You can tell by this thread, the true British grit from years gone by has well and truly gone lol!

Some people will always fight. Some people will always run. The majority will react depending on circumstances,what is possible ,how the morale is etc.

Surrendering would've caused resentment.
Not surrendering and losing will cause resentment.
Only chance of some comfort would be winning, which is not certain.

We might owe a lot of things to our countries,no one owes them their lives.

@MRS54321

The world is essentially having to sacrifice the Ukraine in order to halt WW3 That’s my opinion I also feel it’s pointless for them to resist , absolutely tragic, but we’re not coming to their aid. That doesn’t mean myself or your friend don’t care.

Well I hope you would feel the same way if Russia declared war on the UK. But something tells me you wouldn’t.

That’s such a colonial type mentality and so offensive to the proud nation of Ukraine.

I am half with him in that they shouldnt fight it just means more dead.

but he''s wrong about the US riding to the rescue, this is 2014 in reverse hence putins talk about neo nazis and drugs to he referring to Svoboda and probably the CIA for the drugs reference.

@Georgeskitchen

I remember the good old days when people could have a friendly debate about politics and allsorts of ithe subjects without it being the be all or end all. Differing opinions were the norm and encouraged healthy debate. No need to fall out about it!!

Yep...

@LifeIsWhat

Of course he is entitled to his opinion, and I fully respect that. However, I am still shocked to learn that he thinks that, It is pointless for the Ukraine people to flight, they should just surrender and wait for the US and NATO to join the war. What's the point to fight a losing war. He made is clear that he would run away and let others to fight.

My argument s are:

1. why would other people flight for you if you are not prepared at least try to defend your own country? It is only nature to defend your home when enemy broke in and bluntly invaded your country.
2. Many things, from a toothache to a war, it is better to kill it at early stage, the price might seem high now, but leave it later will cost you much much more.

Anyway, I am quite surprised and disappointed...

So you'd be happy for your children to fight and die in a war its already known they're the losers for?

I wouldn't be sending or encouraging my children to die for our country and I doubt many others would either. Your friend sounds as though they have their head screwed on!

@ParisLondonTokyoSlough colonial?
I can assure you that’s not my intention

When I say” we are not coming to their aid” it doesn’t mean the world shouldn’t - its” the world “ is unlikely to do anything to incite more madness from Putin. Their hands are pretty much tied. Putin has threatened us all.

I am so very sorry for any victim of war. And also disagree with Patels visa policy. Disgusting.

I too would run and hide, and certainly wouldn't want my children to fight and possibly sacrifice their lives. I seem to have a mental block when it comes to patriotism, I just don't get it.

Does anyone else feel the same?

@ChoiceMummy - please read my posts as what you are asking is NOT what I am talking about.

My point was: I disagree when my friend that Ukraine people should just surrender and wait for NATO and US come and save their country.

@kimbyy

Every day they resist & Putin is set back makes Putin look worse & the rest of the world look bad for not doing enough.

So true as we watch all the brave Ukrainians fight back it does feel like this, I don’t suppose any of us know what we would do, I hope we never have to find out. The Russian people don’t want this I’m sure either they were brave to demonstrate against it. So many Ukrainians fought hard and were killed in WW2 getting rid of an evil oppressor, now they have another one, while we we sit back and watch.

[quote LifeIsWhat]@ChoiceMummy - please read my posts as what you are asking is NOT what I am talking about.

My point was: I disagree when my friend that Ukraine people should just surrender and wait for NATO and US come and save their country.[/quote]
He's very wrong about US and NATO doing anything about it. They never would.

Surrendering is an option though, wether it's the right or wrong one it's irrelevant anyways as it's not what Ukraine have chosen and he is not in a position where millions depend on him,with their history and their risks. A lot of people have a strong self preservation instinct, especially in an abstract debate. Just like so many are suddenly brave and heroes and would fight to the death... in an imaginary fight.

I cant stand all the glorifying of ukrainian men who are being given arms and forced to stay and fight the russians in a war they dont want and cant win. Theres no glory. All these ukrainian men are going to die.

Dulce decorum est. The old lie.

@ldontWanna
I agree, and thank you for not putting words in my month.

As sad as the situation is I feel they are fighting a losing battle !! Worry what will happen to the lovely president and I am also very concerned what Putin will do if it’s not going to plan !!

*mouth.

Interesting how so many people think there isnt a reason to fight the invaders.
The people there are so desperate that they are trying to stop the tanks with their bare bodies. They know what it is to live an occupied country and have known for centuries.
I really do hope that there isnt a day some time in the future when you realise you with they fought more. As in I hope this war doesnt cause as much trouble to make British people suffer.

Maybe I am new to MN...but since when calling people 'Tone Deaf Twat', telling people you have 'FFS', 'NO FXXKing Clue', 'YOU KNOW NOTHING' . is normal in a conversation? Do you talk to people this way in real life when you disagree with them?

Do you just shout: "FFS, you have no fxxking clue, you tone deaf twat?".

Since when a debate is becoming so personal, you don't know me but automatically assuming me of many things (must be holding nice wine after a lovely dinner and washed your hair in warm water, and not she must be virtue signalling). When I explained that I am not what you assumed - it is also wrong, because "why it is always about you.". If this is not bully, what is?

And, please do not ask me strawman questions - will you let your children.., what if.... there can be thousands scenarios and I simply are not claiming that I know all the answers. No one does.

I say it again, My friend think Ukraine should just surrender straight away, and wait for NATO and US come and rescue and disagree with that. Especially a colleague went back to Ukraine last week. However right he might be, it is just broke my heart to think she is flighting in vain.

[quote LifeIsWhat]@ChoiceMummy - please read my posts as what you are asking is NOT what I am talking about.

My point was: I disagree when my friend that Ukraine people should just surrender and wait for NATO and US come and save their country.[/quote]
So as I said, you expect that parents should send their children to fight and die knowing they're literally fighting a losing battle!

So again, in their shoes, would YOU send your children off to die and fight?

Nato and the US arent going to come to help. Why would they? There are lots of wars in the world at the moment and if we had rolling news coverage of any of them we would feel heartbroken.
We have the US supporting Israeli invasion of Palestine. Barely an opinion on Tibet or Taiwan. Sudan. The media put rolling news coverage on things they have decided we need to focus on to suit their military agenda and to get us all pumped in case they want to do something horrific to another country

All borders are artificial. Countries and culture are concepts in our minds.
If we are faced with armies and war, then individual countries and keeping artifical borders in the control of the existing government rather than a different one, should be noones country. People should get out and try and survive

I agree with you friend. I think that they should surrender. If you look back at this history of the Ukraine the Russians are not going to back down. Why obliterate your Country in a war that you can't win. There is no shame in accepted defeat and hoping other Governments/political leaders in the East and West will be able to sort out the future of this troubled country.

The Ukraine has had very little independence throughout history. Maybe just after the world War 1 and in the 90s.

@Branleuse

I cant stand all the glorifying of ukrainian men who are being given arms and forced to stay and fight the russians in a war they dont want and cant win. Theres no glory. All these ukrainian men are going to die.

Dulce decorum est. The old lie.

all 16 to 60 year old men isnt it? they are being stopped from crossing the boarder and ordered to fight.