Uncomfortable with a good friend's opinion on Ukraine

[LifeIsWhat]

Of course he is entitled to his opinion, and I fully respect that. However, I am still shocked to learn that he thinks that, It is pointless for the Ukraine people to flight, they should just surrender and wait for the US and NATO to join the war. What's the point to fight a losing war. He made is clear that he would run away and let others to fight.

My argument s are:

1. why would other people flight for you if you are not prepared at least try to defend your own country? It is only nature to defend your home when enemy broke in and bluntly invaded your country.
2. Many things, from a toothache to a war, it is better to kill it at early stage, the price might seem high now, but leave it later will cost you much much more.

Anyway, I am quite surprised and disappointed...

@Gingerbreadman1972

Are you also disappointed in the Ukranians who are fleeing right now in the hope they can keep themselves and their families safe? Rather than fighting as should come naturally to them?

I highly suspect you don't have a bloody clue what would come naturally to you unless you have faced such horrors. I think your post is in very poor taste, but by all means sit on your sofa, in your warm house, thinking you'd stay and fight - very easy to do when your life isn't under threat. Some Ukranians are fighting, some are fleeing, neither is wrong.

Agree. What a shitty post to make

Neither of you sound particularly knowledgeable about the situation. Neither am I, but to be blunt your friend sounds honest and uninformed, and you sound naive and uninformed.

@Gingerbreadman1972

Are you also disappointed in the Ukranians who are fleeing right now in the hope they can keep themselves and their families safe? Rather than fighting as should come naturally to them?

I highly suspect you don't have a bloody clue what would come naturally to you unless you have faced such horrors. I think your post is in very poor taste, but by all means sit on your sofa, in your warm house, thinking you'd stay and fight - very easy to do when your life isn't under threat. Some Ukranians are fighting, some are fleeing, neither is wrong.

I also highly suspect that you also don't have a bloody clue but it is so much easier to be cynical, and post a reply in very poor taste but by all means, lie in your bad, in you warm house, and think you outsmarted someone online.

I somewhat agree. I think without NATO and the wests' military help (which isn't happening..), resistance is futile. It just leads to more unnecessary deaths and destruction. The Russian army is almost 5x the size of Ukraines. Victory is certain and Putin will not back down now until he acheives it. I think they should surrender. Not a popular opinion, but a practical one.

How rude of you OP to sort in your armchair and judge whether the reaction of the Ukraine people to the worst event of their lives is good enough for you. And that is what your doing as your friend's reaction reflects what many people are doing as you well know. It's easy to say that you would be brave when you're not living in a war zone. There is no right or wrong reaction and your friend is probably being more honest than most people about their true reaction. If I was either of your friends I would be disappointed in you judging people experiencing this trauma rather than thinking about how you can help. And you seriously compared fighting to the death in a war zone to protect your family to a toothache. Totally inappropriate and very disappointing. Have some compassion.

@ilovepuppies2019

How rude of you OP to sort in your armchair and judge whether the reaction of the Ukraine people to the worst event of their lives is good enough for you. And that is what your doing as your friend's reaction reflects what many people are doing as you well know. It's easy to say that you would be brave when you're not living in a war zone. There is no right or wrong reaction and your friend is probably being more honest than most people about their true reaction. If I was either of your friends I would be disappointed in you judging people experiencing this trauma rather than thinking about how you can help. And you seriously compared fighting to the death in a war zone to protect your family to a toothache. Totally inappropriate and very disappointing. Have some compassion.

Of course I AM NOT comparing a war to toothache. OF COURSE NOT. I am talking about face the problem before it growing bigger and worse. As a real problem will NOT disappear.

@mjf981

I somewhat agree. I think without NATO and the wests' military help (which isn't happening..), resistance is futile. It just leads to more unnecessary deaths and destruction. The Russian army is almost 5x the size of Ukraines. Victory is certain and Putin will not back down now until he acheives it. I think they should surrender. Not a popular opinion, but a practical one.

You seem to have conveniently forgotten that the bloody man has not just got to win, he then has to keep it. An entirely different and much more difficult proposition.

MN was full of self righteous posts last year claiming if they lived in Afghanistan they would flee to protect their children

If understand if a Ukranian wants to run away as fast as they can to safety.

I understand if a Ukranian wants to stay and take up arms.

Have you ever been in this position, OP? Or are you sitting at home in the UK after having had a nice dinner and a couple of glasses of wine? Easiest thing in the world to say they should stay and fight when you're talking in hypotheticals.

@betwixtlives

how easy for you to say the ‘right’ thing to do is to stay and fight 🙄. i suspect if it came down to risking your life and that of your family you wouldn’t find it quite so easy

exactly - when it comes to people who you care about - surely most wouldn't? Unless you are one of those men who had sent their family abroad and stayed to fight there themselves - but how many wives/children aer happy with that choice?

It's fairly straightforward. For centuries, nations surrounding Russia have feared them. Have a look at the history of it, and you can see why. Their sovereign status means more to them than we can possibly understand, so yes, of course they will fight for something so hard won.

I don't think Ukraine is fighting as such. I see it as them holding out until proper support from other countries arrives. They can't do this alone.

I have full admiration on the people at the moment, are flighting for Ukraine, including my colleague who flew back last week. That's how the conversation started,

The disagreement came from that my good friend think it is unnecessary, and Ukraine should just surrender straight away.

This is not about me, or I want to look good. And no, I didn't have dinner tonight and sitting on my comfy sofa, to virtue signalling, as I worked over time today and will also do tomorrow (that makes me working 7 days this week) to pay for the increasing energy bill.

What a bulls**t post. Were you arguing over a nice glass of wine after a lovely meal or maybe Starbucks.

If you are so sure that the right thing for poor unfortunate people to do is to stand up against Putin and get slaughtered maybe you want to head out and support them as a mercenary or aid worker? Nope I didn't think you would. Talks cheap.

@LifeIsWhat of course I don't know what I'd do, thanks for making my point for me. None of us do unless we're currently deciding whether to flee or stay and face some Russian tanks. I honestly don't know how you can watch the horrors currently unfolding and feel you can judge the decisions people are making, decisions I imagine don't come easy. And trust me, all I feel in my warm bed is fortunate. I suggest you do the same and develop some empathy

@OhWhyNot

MN was full of self righteous posts last year claiming if they lived in Afghanistan they would flee to protect their children

Hmmm, so it was. I wonder if OP posted on those threads

So what would you be doing right now if you were in Kyiv OP?

There is a strict curfew until Monday there for all Ukrainians, because apparently Russian troops have been disguising themselves as the Ukrainian army and then attacking them, which is a war crime. It's the third night of attacks, civilians have died, air raid sirens are going off, residential buildings and hospitals have been attacked. Russian troops are advancing, and if they take control of the borders you will not have the option to leave. You will be ruled by a man who does not give a fuck about your rights. Working 7 days a week would be heaven compared to being scared of potentially being raped or murdered by Russian troops.

What would you personally do? Stay and fight and potentially die for your country? Women are fighting alongside men. Or run? That's if you even have the means to go anywhere.

It is full fight or flight situation, and none of us can honestly say what they would do. The people who are fighting are incredibly brave.

Why are you surprised and disappointed in your friends opinion? Because he has a penis?

@mjf981

I somewhat agree. I think without NATO and the wests' military help (which isn't happening..), resistance is futile. It just leads to more unnecessary deaths and destruction. The Russian army is almost 5x the size of Ukraines. Victory is certain and Putin will not back down now until he acheives it. I think they should surrender. Not a popular opinion, but a practical one.

Yes, just what I said, will lead to much more serious destruction, though it is complex. Some of the older generation there do like Putin, and are nostalgic for the older system, but I just can't see how he can pursuade the young ones as it never worked well before Maidan 'coup' 8yrs ago - when it was sovereign but with pro-Russian president who then had to be saved by (flee to) russia. They have no vision at all of how would it work even if they considered, and he never laid it out in detail, apart from saying they would respect Ukr culture, help the economy etc - too vague.

@LifeIsWhat I was washing my hair in my lovely warm shower thinking of the terrified people in Kiev sheltering in underground car parks.

@Yaya26

What a bulls**t post. Were you arguing over a nice glass of wine after a lovely meal or maybe Starbucks.

If you are so sure that the right thing for poor unfortunate people to do is to stand up against Putin and get slaughtered maybe you want to head out and support them as a mercenary or aid worker? Nope I didn't think you would. Talks cheap.

What a bulls**t reply, to assume a person you don't know at all, are arguing over a nice glass of wine or meal or startbucks.

@LifeIsWhat

I have full admiration on the people at the moment, are flighting for Ukraine, including my colleague who flew back last week. That's how the conversation started,

The disagreement came from that my good friend think it is unnecessary, and Ukraine should just surrender straight away.

This is not about me, or I want to look good. And no, I didn't have dinner tonight and sitting on my comfy sofa, to virtue signalling, as I worked over time today and will also do tomorrow (that makes me working 7 days this week) to pay for the increasing energy bill.

Ohhh I didn’t realise you’ve worked overtime and your gas bill is increasing, making you understanding of what Ukrainians are facing, you should have said! 🤦🏾‍♀️

Just out of interest, what nationality are you OP?

[quote Yaya26]@LifeIsWhat I was washing my hair in my lovely warm shower thinking of the terrified people in Kiev sheltering in underground car parks.[/quote]
Good for you. I did wash my hair and thinking of the terrified people, and I also donated and supported my Ukraine colleague.

Of course, it doesn't matter as I am guilty for washing my hair with warm water.

The disagreement came from that my good friend think it is unnecessary, and Ukraine should just surrender straight away.

Well I don't agree with that either. Roll over for the Russians and accept whatever bullshit mad Putin has decided? Nah.

Also, during this recession where the rich have got richer and poor vice versa. Many people have lost everything. So what would they be fighting for? Oh yeah, to keep the position of the wealthy safe.

Ohhh, maybe I didn't think it is necessary until I was automatically accused of drinking nice wine, sitting on my sofa and having a lovely dinner....