Uncomfortable with a good friend's opinion on Ukraine

[LifeIsWhat]

Of course he is entitled to his opinion, and I fully respect that. However, I am still shocked to learn that he thinks that, It is pointless for the Ukraine people to flight, they should just surrender and wait for the US and NATO to join the war. What's the point to fight a losing war. He made is clear that he would run away and let others to fight.

My argument s are:

1. why would other people flight for you if you are not prepared at least try to defend your own country? It is only nature to defend your home when enemy broke in and bluntly invaded your country.
2. Many things, from a toothache to a war, it is better to kill it at early stage, the price might seem high now, but leave it later will cost you much much more.

Anyway, I am quite surprised and disappointed...

OP I hope you reminded your male friend if he is between 18-60 unless he was abroad already he wouldn't be allowed to leave the Ukraine. There as you as a woman could flee even if you had no children.

For the first time since the Cold War, the USA has put their Strike Force under the command of NATO.

There as you as a woman could flee even if you had no children.

OP wouldn't flee though would she? Still not said what she would actually do, but she can't flee if she feels this strongly

So next time someone bullies you or your family you will just let it go? Hand over everything you own and say ok?

And seeing as you've still not said what you would be doing in Kyiv now, I'm assuming that you would also be fleeing. As least your friend was honest.

every criticism you get, you reply by trying to turn that criticism back on the poster: someone says you’re tone deaf, you call them tone deaf (which makes no sense), someone calls you distasteful, you say they’re distasteful, someone says your views are bullshit, you say their reply is bullshit etc… it’s very ‘I know I am but what are you’ school childish. Which makes sense I guess, your views on the people of Ukraine are also immature

@LifeIsWhat can you not understand why people are upset with what you've said? You may not mean it to come across like it has, but by criticising your friend, it sounds like you are criticising the people who have chosen to leave Ukraine. These people are fleeing in fear of their lives, with no knowledge of whether they'll be able to go home, see their families again, it must be terrifying. And whether it was meant or not, it sounds like you think they are wrong to do that. I don't know if that's how you mean for it to come across, but that is how I and I think others have interpreted it. Hence comments about you not knowing how you'd feel in thst situation.

I think the President is an absolute hero, the guy wasn't even in politics until very recently, life would have been much easier if he'd have stayed a comedian but in all my awe for him and others who have stayed to fight, I dont think the people leaving are doing anything wrong, and i have no idea what I would do in thst situation because I am fortunate that I've never had to make such an awful decision.

Surely this type of ruminating between friends is kind of pointless?

TBF, I don’t know where you or your friend grew up. But I’m going to take a rough guess that those that grew up in, say, the UK, are going to have a very different mindset to those that have grown up elsewhere. Trying to adapt your mindset to one of someone who has grown up with a very different political history is pointless.

Yes, we have our own shitshow of matters here. But in the greater scheme of things, we have always been safe from persecution, starvation, drought, etc etc.

Therefore, our mindset is going to work differently because of years of general “comfort” - even though a large swathe of the UK population would say that their lives aren’t comfortable within our society.

I’m in awe of what we’ve seen so far from the Ukrainian population. Even given the news from the last few days, I still can’t imagine how the population of the UK would react. Given the number of threads on here, everyone seems to be looking out for/concerned about themselves. I’d like to think I’d stay and fight/help in some way - but I think this type of scenario is so far removed from our imagination.

Some people might run. Maybe they’ll become amazingly useful once they’ve reached safety - maybe they’ll be the ones who then feel confident enough to mobilise relief/sanctuary etc from a safer space - those people have value too, not just the ones who stay and fight. We all have our own strengths, they just might play out/emerge in different ways.

By that I mean, you cannot judge what people in Ukraine are doing right now, because you are not in their situation, or anything remotely like it.

I always think I'm going to go for an early morning run, have every intention of going, set my kit out ready, set my alarm, plan my route, pick my playlist etc. But when my alarm goes off at 5am, I look outside and see it's raining so roll over and go back to sleep. It's one thing saying you will do something, and another thing actually doing it when push comes to shove.

she can't flee if she feels this strongly

If she isn't childless, the father of their joint child(ren) may not give her that choice.

Anyway my point like everyone else's point in this thread is OP you and your colleague are taking hypothetical positions as you both don't know what you allowed to do and so could do in a specific situation.

@LifeIsWhat - TBF, your posts aren’t doing you many favours. Throwing “bully” around is old hat. You’d come across better if you were engaging properly.

I agree with your friend. The thing that has most horrified me is that in this situation I would be able to leave the country with my two children and my husband would have to stay behind to fight. I would want him to prioritise his family over his country and do whatever he needed to stay alive.

I completely understand wanting to fight for your freedom, but it seems such a tragic waste for so many men to lay down their lives when defeat seems so inevitable.

I have COVID currently and nowt else to do than feel shit and watch the news.

I stand in awe of the Ukraine, their president and their people. If I lived there, now, with my family...what I would do is take my children to safety then go back and support my country. Everyone is in a different position. None of us should judge.

But the the Ukrainian people cannot wait for help because as things stand it cannot come.

Other countries can impose sanctions etc. But Ukraine are not a member of nato. If the UK or USA or other countries were to send in troops, we would be at war with Russia. And Putin has made clear he will not tolerate this.

Russia has big nuclear weapons. We cannot let them win but we cannot take them on directly or we have WW3

"If I lived there, now, with my family...what I would do is take my children to safety then go back and support my country. Everyone is in a different position. None of us should judge."

Whose going to look after your children though?

@LifeIsWhat

Of course he is entitled to his opinion, and I fully respect that. However, I am still shocked to learn that he thinks that, It is pointless for the Ukraine people to flight, they should just surrender and wait for the US and NATO to join the war. What's the point to fight a losing war. He made is clear that he would run away and let others to fight.

My argument s are:

1. why would other people flight for you if you are not prepared at least try to defend your own country? It is only nature to defend your home when enemy broke in and bluntly invaded your country.
2. Many things, from a toothache to a war, it is better to kill it at early stage, the price might seem high now, but leave it later will cost you much much more.

Anyway, I am quite surprised and disappointed...

with all due respect, unless you are or have military training in various equipment, access to various equipment, knowledge of troop movements, ect,

then without these aspects, how is trying to fight a better trained, better equipped, better intelligence army going to make a difference ect

@SC215

"If I lived there, now, with my family...what I would do is take my children to safety then go back and support my country. Everyone is in a different position. None of us should judge."

Whose going to look after your children though?

Am kind of assuming that the poster would know someone elsewhere that was willing to help by taking in the family. Am pretty sure most people have a modicum of sense when they say something like this!

My husband. While I would use my skills in medicine to help in hospitals and field hospitals.

But I would not expect my daughters to do the same as teenagers! I would take them to a safe area then do what I could.

What would you do?

The internet is not a place of Innocent till proven guilty - lessons learned.

I never claimed that I knew what it was like in a war zone.

I am upset because my good friend said there is no point for Ukraine to fight right now. They should just surrender and wait for NATO and US to save the country.

I also told him that I respect his opinion, and l do appreciate his honesty.

My father was in a similar situation (a real losing cause, but the right one, everyone would know it, but I want some privacy), and he chose to fight for what he believed. And I remembered the night he kissed me, and my mum goodbye and the childhood fear is still vivid. He passed away now, but fighting for a losing course might mean something instead of surrendering straight away? My Ukraine colleague who went back for a losing cause probably reminded me of this. My admiration to her (yes, a real person, who actually could be having wine and lovely dinner) is the cause of the disagreement with my friend.

You can call me naive, but do not assume that I am sitting on a sofa, drinking wine and writing this post for my ego. You project what's in your mind.

Good night.

@LifeIsWhat

The internet is not a place of Innocent till proven guilty - lessons learned.

I never claimed that I knew what it was like in a war zone.

I am upset because my good friend said there is no point for Ukraine to fight right now. They should just surrender and wait for NATO and US to save the country.

I also told him that I respect his opinion, and l do appreciate his honesty.

My father was in a similar situation (a real losing cause, but the right one, everyone would know it, but I want some privacy), and he chose to fight for what he believed. And I remembered the night he kissed me, and my mum goodbye and the childhood fear is still vivid. He passed away now, but fighting for a losing course might mean something instead of surrendering straight away? My Ukraine colleague who went back for a losing cause probably reminded me of this. My admiration to her (yes, a real person, who actually could be having wine and lovely dinner) is the cause of the disagreement with my friend.

You can call me naive, but do not assume that I am sitting on a sofa, drinking wine and writing this post for my ego. You project what's in your mind.

Good night.

unless your in with the underground or other groups able to equip, train , and have accurate intelligence, ect then could they make a difference ? otherwise if your their in a lone wolf situation, then what is achieved ?

OP NATO isn't going to save Ukraine otherwise it will be WW3.

@RedWingBoots

OP NATO isn't going to save Ukraine otherwise it will be WW3.

@RedWingBoots I know! I said the same to my friend.

@Codswallop20 your husband cannot leave though? If we are talking about being in Ukraine right now. Men 16 - 60 are being told that they can't leave

What would I do? I'm a nurse so I guess either stay and do that rather than making molotov cocktails. I saw a video of a makeshift NICU in a hospital basement earlier and sobbed. My partner has said that he wouldn't leave, and we don't have kids. I couldn't leave without him so I would stay. If he died or Russia took over then I would probably shoot myself tbh. I would be terrified of being raped.

Though who knows what I would actually do in the situation.