Government to propose minimum grades needed to access student loans.

[pancakesandsyrupplease]

Here;

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2022/feb/22/fears-that-minimum-grades-for-student-loans-in-england-could-narrow-access?CMP=ShareiOSAppp_Other

AIBU to think that the universities should be the ones to make the admission decisions, and that this will do what the article says: restrict access to those from disadvantaged backgrounds.

I felt so sad when I read this. Society feels so bloody regressive right now

Is there any proof that disadvantaged students (or any others) scraping by on Ds and Es miraculously find their “educational mojo” at University and graduate with a shiny 1st? Or is it more likely they scrape by in Uni too and emerge with a ton of debt and not much else to show for it?

My daughter is doing A levels at the moment but if all she can muster at the end if it is three Es, then I certainly won’t be dipping into my pocket to pay for her go to Uni and I don’t think the Government/taxpayer should have to either.

I’m waiting for the detail to be published tomorrow. If the proposal is a ‘one-shot’ approach to GCSE Maths and English then this will be very wrong. If, however, a candidate can’t get 4s in English and Maths GCSE or an equivalent level 2 qualification despite multiple resits then I think that a university degree is very unlikely to be the right path for them and they deserve decent guidance and good quality alternative pathways.

At the moment I am constantly flabbergasted when I talk to many people in their early twenties, who it's very clear after a five minute conversation are not academic, to then discover they have a degree. It's got silly. I do think at the moment that far too many children go to university when it's clearly not for them; it seems plans like this are trying to address this. Yes it's not fair, but rich folk will always be able to buy a degree for their Boris.

My husband has a double First and PhD from Cambridge. He could never pass Maths. It’s right, though, that he could go to university.

The education thing was designed to hide/massage unemployment figures. Vocational training is vitally important and there aren't enough opportunities for young people to train into useful jobs.

This will also have an impact upon mature students attempting to retrain & have a career.

I couldn’t pass the maths GCSE, tried it twice. I’m absolutely useless at maths but great at English and history and got an A* in both. Went to study English literature and history at uni and got a first. Lack of a maths GCSE hasn’t held me back at all, I’m an English teacher. I don’t see why it should hold anyone back personally.

@NurseButtercup

This will also have an impact upon mature students attempting to retrain & have a career.

Think they’ve said mature students will be exempt.

@SartresSoul

I couldn’t pass the maths GCSE, tried it twice. I’m absolutely useless at maths but great at English and history and got an A* in both. Went to study English literature and history at uni and got a first. Lack of a maths GCSE hasn’t held me back at all, I’m an English teacher. I don’t see why it should hold anyone back personally.

How did you qualify as a teacher without maths GCSE?

'So regressive' - how hard is it to get a 4?

@liliainterfrutices

My husband has a double First and PhD from Cambridge. He could never pass Maths. It’s right, though, that he could go to university.

But I suspect he does have the equivalent of 2 x E at A level which is an alternative criterion.

@SartresSoul

I couldn’t pass the maths GCSE, tried it twice. I’m absolutely useless at maths but great at English and history and got an A* in both. Went to study English literature and history at uni and got a first. Lack of a maths GCSE hasn’t held me back at all, I’m an English teacher. I don’t see why it should hold anyone back personally.

And it won't hold people in your position back either as they will have met the "or" 2 Es at A level requirement.

@Vinniepolis

Is there any proof that disadvantaged students (or any others) scraping by on Ds and Es miraculously find their “educational mojo” at University and graduate with a shiny 1st? Or is it more likely they scrape by in Uni too and emerge with a ton of debt and not much else to show for it?

My daughter is doing A levels at the moment but if all she can muster at the end if it is three Es, then I certainly won’t be dipping into my pocket to pay for her go to Uni and I don’t think the Government/taxpayer should have to either.

If she got a bunch of E's then the unis probably wouldn't want here anyway.

This is about the government gate keeping. There has been a few posts already about maths GCSE, and I suspect there'll be more. Why should not being able to pass maths GCSE stop someone being able to pursue an academic subject that they do have a talent for at degree level?

I think if they do this is should depend in subject. You don't need maths gcse to do degree level foreign language.

Why should the loans be reliant on this? Typical Tory policy - why is it only those who need loans who lose access to such courses? Trying to be popular with their usual crowd again. Many courses have minimum requirements anyway. Seems like a smoke and mirrors story and a further distraction technique.

It took me 7 attempts to pass my O Level maths. I had the same teacher for 6 of those attempts. I had a tutor for my 7th after a gap of about 5 yrs and passed. I have a 2:1 joint honours in English Lit and History.
I have been a teacher for over 20 years now.
Don't write people off.

I understating the rational, and agree that people doing a micks mouse degree with a bunch of D' and E's helps no one. But I think using student loans in this way is wrong, they seem to be intentionally leaving the door open to 'thick kids of the elite' whilst closing it to others with similar grades.

I would prefer a move to make universities only except candidates with certain grades, maybe by making it a condition of there charter. But that should apply to all students, not just those who would need a loan.

Most universities do have minimum requirements anyway. Also, there needs to be a shift in requirements first, many industries require a degree as a minimum for a starter role, which never used to, this needs to change before any moves are made to make them unavailable and inaccessible.

I am torn on this. I think it will affect disadvantaged people accessing university. But i also think universities sell courses to unsuitable people to make money and i dont trust them to sort out admissions other than for their own profit.
Im just not sure that maths and english gcse are the measure of suitability for some degrees.

For those that can't get a 4 in either English or Maths gcse the proposal is if they can get 2 Es at A level or equivalent instead they can still access student finance. Thus noone is being ruled out if they aren't good at maths at all. People should perhaps want for the report and also remember it is going to consultation so it isn't set in stone yet.

@arethereanyleftatall

At the moment I am constantly flabbergasted when I talk to many people in their early twenties, who it's very clear after a five minute conversation are not academic, to then discover they have a degree. It's got silly. I do think at the moment that far too many children go to university when it's clearly not for them; it seems plans like this are trying to address this. Yes it's not fair, but rich folk will always be able to buy a degree for their Boris.

^ this

I went to university a long time ago before the floodgates opened.

Letting everyone go to university hasn't improved standards. I've been absolutely amazed at the standard of grammar and spelling I've seen from relatively recent graduates.

The whole system has turned into a complete farce.

It should not be that loans are dependent on this, just that a GCSE in Maths and English (or equivalent) should be required to do a university course. With access courses for those who did not gain this when 16, so mature students are not excluded.

But if most jobs require a degree then the 'floodgates' need to be open or people won't have access to jobs.

Two 'E's used to be the minimum required to qualify for means tested grants.

If someone can't make 2*E grade or equivalent I'd question whether they were wise to borrow tens of thousands to take a degree on a course which had such low entry requirements.

I would recommend they first look at apprenticeships which lead to a degree but start with an intermediate qualification which would give them both job experience and the path to a degree without racking up the debt.

@balalake

It should not be that loans are dependent on this, just that a GCSE in Maths and English (or equivalent) should be required to do a university course. With access courses for those who did not gain this when 16, so mature students are not excluded.

*@SartresSoul* said that mature students are excluded, I quickly scan read the article so I missed this point.

I immediately thought about my peers retraining to become nurses, all failed maths & english at school. Completed the access course or the foundation degree in order to qualify for the nursing degree. Approximately 60% of my cohort joined the nursing degree via this route. If they were excluded from the student loans they wouldn't be nurses.