Government to propose minimum grades needed to access student loans.

[pancakesandsyrupplease]

Here;

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2022/feb/22/fears-that-minimum-grades-for-student-loans-in-england-could-narrow-access?CMP=ShareiOSAppp_Other

AIBU to think that the universities should be the ones to make the admission decisions, and that this will do what the article says: restrict access to those from disadvantaged backgrounds.

I felt so sad when I read this. Society feels so bloody regressive right now

I also think this is a good idea. If you can’t scrape these grades then uni is not likely to be your optimal solution. So many are going now who shouldn’t be and building mountains of debt they never earn enough to pay back, there needs to be a better way. More apprenticeships. Different training schemes, not just uni is the default and any one can go irrelevant if it’s beneficial academically.

I think this is probably a decent rule most of the time, but I think there should be a mechanism that allows people to apply for their case to be considered and treated as a special exception.

Like, say an immigrant kid who is excellent at maths came to the UK as a teen and their English was not good enough for them to pass an English GCSE at age 16--it would be a shame to deny them the opportunity to study maths based on this (and their English will improve going forward), so there should be a way for such a student and their family to appeal and ask to be considered on a case-by-case basis.

The UK are in the bottom three countries in both numeracy and literacy at university level.

To ge honest I’m not sure how this changes anything, in order to access University straight from school you need A Levels or the equivalent. In order to do A levels you need a certain amount of points - each school have their own variation of this. In order to do an A level you don’t just need a 4 which is a pass, you need a 6 for English, a 7 for maths and a 6 for the sciences - to include a 6 in maths if you want to do physics.
My children are not at the Uni stage yet, although If he chooses to go DS1 will be going in the next 2 years, but I was not aware of any Uni who will accept a candidate with 2 E grades at A level. It would be interesting to know what these courses are.

Unless this government can get a grip on house prices and the cost of living, then this stuff is all just rearranging the deckchairs. Unfortunately the Tories couldn’t give a shit because they and theirs will not be part of the group of lifelong renters/people living near the poverty line.

Yet another way to hold down those not born into wealth!

I loathe this government and all it stands for.

The stats are clear: a brighter person from a disadvantaged area will do less well at work, etc, compared to an average person who attended a public school.
Stopping someone who might be a late developer or not good at either English or Maths from going to uni will widen the gap.

It's sick. It makes me feel sick.

I went to a state school, and we didn't get taught how to revise. We didn't get taught how to break what we've learnt into mind maps, no writing the whole course on an envelope for us. We were left to just get on with it. But 8 out of 11 in my year in 6th form went to uni or poly on the grades we got at A level. And we all graduated with honours. Yet some of my sixth for mates didn't pass maths. I get it, if you can't see the pattern or follow the process you won't get the right answer, so it's hard.

Uni is not there just for those rich enough or privileged enough to rely on the bank of mum and dad. It is there to help identify the best brains in our society, hone them, and grow our capability as a nation. Having a maths or English gcse is irrelevant to many subjects.

And before you ask, I read chemistry at a top 5 uni - I'm lucky to be good at maths, lol...

I think that this is really problematic- what about students with dyscalculia or dyslexia? It's perfectly possible to do well in a History, English Literature or Religious studies degree without a maths GCSE.

Just another Tory policy that penalises those in lower socio economic groups

Whilst I agree that we need to make sure there is access to higher education for all who wish to pursue it there are far too many young people saddling themselves with tens of thousands pounds worth of debt for degrees that will be of no use at all to their careers. And as the tax payer we pick up the shortfall because they’ll never earn enough to pay it back. The system does need some sort of overhaul (except this is going to bugger up a lot of the lesser Unis who have been recklessly encouraged to expand etc).

@Dibbydoos

Yet another way to hold down those not born into wealth!

I loathe this government and all it stands for.

The stats are clear: a brighter person from a disadvantaged area will do less well at work, etc, compared to an average person who attended a public school.
Stopping someone who might be a late developer or not good at either English or Maths from going to uni will widen the gap.

It's sick. It makes me feel sick.

I went to a state school, and we didn't get taught how to revise. We didn't get taught how to break what we've learnt into mind maps, no writing the whole course on an envelope for us. We were left to just get on with it. But 8 out of 11 in my year in 6th form went to uni or poly on the grades we got at A level. And we all graduated with honours. Yet some of my sixth for mates didn't pass maths. I get it, if you can't see the pattern or follow the process you won't get the right answer, so it's hard.

Uni is not there just for those rich enough or privileged enough to rely on the bank of mum and dad. It is there to help identify the best brains in our society, hone them, and grow our capability as a nation. Having a maths or English gcse is irrelevant to many subjects.

And before you ask, I read chemistry at a top 5 uni - I'm lucky to be good at maths, lol...

Yes, I totally agree with Dibbydoos. It's just another way to make the disadvantaged more disadvantaged. (Just as background- I went to comprehensive and achieved A/A* for all of my GCSEs but I had university educated parents who were able to provide me with the right resources, help me to stay motivated and even hire a tutor for one course etc. I have ADHD and had I been from an even less privileged background I can absolutely imagine I might have failed my maths GCSE at first attempt.

@Vinniepolis

Is there any proof that disadvantaged students (or any others) scraping by on Ds and Es miraculously find their “educational mojo” at University and graduate with a shiny 1st? Or is it more likely they scrape by in Uni too and emerge with a ton of debt and not much else to show for it?

My daughter is doing A levels at the moment but if all she can muster at the end if it is three Es, then I certainly won’t be dipping into my pocket to pay for her go to Uni and I don’t think the Government/taxpayer should have to either.

I failed all my GCSE's at highschool and was a late learner. Later on in life I went back to Uni through an access course and came out with a high 1st at a top uni and won 3 awards. I now have a well paid job. So may be your just wrong!

I’m really not sure why this idea should be controversial. A GCSE pass is a basic level of academic attainment which should be straightforward for anyone with aspirations to study at university to achieve.

It’s 30+ years since I did O Level maths, but I would back myself to pass GCSE if I took the paper tomorrow with no preparation, and I would expect anyone else with half a brain to do the same. I would also expect to pass GCSE English Language with no preparation, and English Literature if given a couple of days to read the set texts. It really isn’t difficult.

@NurseButtercup

This will also have an impact upon mature students attempting to retrain & have a career.

They’re planning to exempt mature students. The A level requirement aren’t the same either.

I would be encouraging my children to look at vocational routes such as apprenticeships unless they are clearly academic.

Even if they are academic university debt isn't the only route. For instance, I have some brilliant lawyers in my team who have trained through apprenticeships. They have earned a good salary throughout and won't have any student debt.

@AgathaAllAlong

The UK is the outlier on this, most countries require a certain level of maths to be admitted into university, and maths and literacy are studied up to 18. In my opinion if you can't do basic maths and english, you shouldn't be going to university.

Correct.

University is not a place for the semi-literate or the functionally innumerate.

@Flowersandhearts

I think that this is really problematic- what about students with dyscalculia or dyslexia? It's perfectly possible to do well in a History, English Literature or Religious studies degree without a maths GCSE.

The proposal was that as a minimum you should either have Maths and English GCSE, or EE at A Level. So there's still a way in.

@PlanetNormal

How can you be ‘ functionally innumerate’? Isn’t that a contradiction in terms?

@arethereanyleftatall

At the moment I am constantly flabbergasted when I talk to many people in their early twenties, who it's very clear after a five minute conversation are not academic, to then discover they have a degree. It's got silly. I do think at the moment that far too many children go to university when it's clearly not for them; it seems plans like this are trying to address this. Yes it's not fair, but rich folk will always be able to buy a degree for their Boris.

This.

Degrees are not right for everyone and the dumbing down needs to stop

It’s 30+ years since I did O Level maths, but I would back myself to pass GCSE if I took the paper tomorrow with no preparation, and I would expect anyone else with half a brain to do the same

Ha!

With the greatest respect, unless you're a maths teacher I think you're probably dramatically overestimating your abilities.

I did A Level Maths and got an A. A* at GCSE. I find maths easy, always have. I work in finance and carry out complex calculations daily.

But just being naturally mathematically-minded isn't enough. My 14 year old is currently on an accelerated course prepping him for GCSE maths this summer. I've been helping him revise.

'Just' a GCSE. I thought I could tutor him in my sleep. Isoperimetric quotients anyone? Remember that from your maths GCSE well enough to pass a test on it with no prep? It all filtered back to me eventually after going through the text books but I'm damn sure I'd have floundered just doing a test blind now.

@Onionpatch

I am torn on this. I think it will affect disadvantaged people accessing university. But i also think universities sell courses to unsuitable people to make money and i dont trust them to sort out admissions other than for their own profit. Im just not sure that maths and english gcse are the measure of suitability for some degrees.

Universities prove this time and again

I failed all my GCSE's at highschool and was a late learner. Later on in life I went back to Uni through an access course and came out with a high 1st at a top uni and won 3 awards. I now have a well paid job.
So may be your just wrong!

You’ve actually just contradicted yourself. Do you think you would have got a first if you had somehow managed to get into university at the age of 18? No, because by your own admission you weren’t ready for it.

Why doesn’t anyone want to talk about the lack of equality among state schools and the quality of teaching that students face? Again this is just further disadvantaging those from lower socioeconomic backgrounds/poor schools and environmental difficulties.

Why don’t we talk about the issues with an education system that would let children get to GCSEs without core skills needed to pass an English/maths GCSE? why aren’t we talking about the lack of funding and provision that leads to these disadvantages.

I went to a poor school, in a very disadvantaged area. I excelled in English. But struggled with maths and received minimal/no help from a school that was already on its knees. I don’t have a Maths GCSE. I had no access to further support for this.

Still went to uni and got a first. Completed a post grad and masters with high grades. Managed to be highly qualified in my career and earn well. So are people saying because I couldn’t pass my maths GCSE I shouldn’t have gone on to do any of these things? I came from poverty there was no way I could self fund. This country is getting more strange every day.

Many jobs now require a degree or it’s “desirable”. Young people aren’t all going off to university for nothing. How are they supposed to compete in the job market? And yeah great if you got into your career 30 years ago and now are on 100k per year without needing a degree. However, this does not translate well to today’s standard.

@Vinniepolis but the article doesn't state D & E's it states 4's so grade c and unis normally take the a level or btech into account
And yes some children do , do better at 17/18 rather than 15/16
Just typical of this goverment as it will affect the lower paid more so

If its really 2 e's i don't know many courses that would accept this
But it shouldn't be loan based as that means the rich can still go it should just be a requirement
There are not enough apprenticeships to go around or jobs willing to train
My ds is 18 and working at the moment one of the few that would employ him, he gets £9.60 an hr so not bad but then so do the 40 year olds who have been there 1 years , no room for progression
Only other jobs are hospitality and few trade apprenticeships , but he isn't cut out to be a tradesmen
So its off to uni as then he may get taken seriously for the better jobs if he has a degree
Why are unis in england £9000 yet scotland are free is also a question we should be asking

Or how about another thought we could have free universites , scotland manage it
And agreed min grades no getting around it just because you can pay
But min grades relevant to the subject , its funny how people who have degrees now out down those who do them as now their easy etc like those who did o levels who say gcse are easy now
Its totally different , i did early gcse and my sons recent gcse work was a lot harder and contained things i never even taught and I was in a high set maths class

@worriedatthemoment

If its really 2 e's i don't know many courses that would accept this But it shouldn't be loan based as that means the rich can still go it should just be a requirement There are not enough apprenticeships to go around or jobs willing to train My ds is 18 and working at the moment one of the few that would employ him, he gets £9.60 an hr so not bad but then so do the 40 year olds who have been there 1 years , no room for progression Only other jobs are hospitality and few trade apprenticeships , but he isn't cut out to be a tradesmen So its off to uni as then he may get taken seriously for the better jobs if he has a degree Why are unis in england £9000 yet scotland are free is also a question we should be asking

Re your last sentence. To put it simply university places in Scotland for Scottish students are limited so 'free places' are not available for all who want them or indeed for all who have the required grades. Scottish universities (the better ones anyway) contain huge numbers of English and non EU students who do pay. I would also add that funding for FE colleges has been cut dramatically which has had a terrible knock on effect for those young people wanting to learn a trade.