Government to propose minimum grades needed to access student loans.

[pancakesandsyrupplease]

Here;

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2022/feb/22/fears-that-minimum-grades-for-student-loans-in-england-could-narrow-access?CMP=ShareiOSAppp_Other

AIBU to think that the universities should be the ones to make the admission decisions, and that this will do what the article says: restrict access to those from disadvantaged backgrounds.

I felt so sad when I read this. Society feels so bloody regressive right now

I agree that

there are far too many young people saddling themselves with tens of thousands pounds worth of debt for degrees that will be of no use at all to their careers

But better careers advice and minimum standards for degree courses w pop up’s be a more logical and fair way to tackle it.

@Mamathebest

Why doesn’t anyone want to talk about the lack of equality among state schools and the quality of teaching that students face? Again this is just further disadvantaging those from lower socioeconomic backgrounds/poor schools and environmental difficulties.

Why don’t we talk about the issues with an education system that would let children get to GCSEs without core skills needed to pass an English/maths GCSE? why aren’t we talking about the lack of funding and provision that leads to these disadvantages.

I went to a poor school, in a very disadvantaged area. I excelled in English. But struggled with maths and received minimal/no help from a school that was already on its knees. I don’t have a Maths GCSE. I had no access to further support for this.

Still went to uni and got a first. Completed a post grad and masters with high grades. Managed to be highly qualified in my career and earn well. So are people saying because I couldn’t pass my maths GCSE I shouldn’t have gone on to do any of these things? I came from poverty there was no way I could self fund. This country is getting more strange every day.

Many jobs now require a degree or it’s “desirable”. Young people aren’t all going off to university for nothing. How are they supposed to compete in the job market? And yeah great if you got into your career 30 years ago and now are on 100k per year without needing a degree. However, this does not translate well to today’s standard.

Your achievements are superb and no-one should seek to undermine them.

However if you were to fail your GCSE maths now you would have no option but to retake in order to move on to your chosen Level 3 course, whether A Levels or something else. The same is true of English Language and has been the case since 2013.

There's this new story around student loans for uni, but no one seems to have mentioned all of the young adults on vocational courses or apprenticeships who also have to study (and continually take their exams) for their Maths and English GCSE at the same time as their course and/or apprenticeship if they don't already have a Level 4.....

I work with apprentices who just want to complete their bricklaying/welding/beauty/animal care courses who don't understand why they need these qualifications. It's not just students who want to go to uni who need these quals.

@Andouillette yes im awaRe hence why i said a few trade apprenticeships, there hard to get for those that want them
Also any apprenticeship , I work ij housing and we do trade ones every so often but none in other departments and there are so many different types of jobs its a shame we and other sectors don't do more apprenticeships in all sorts of jobs

I don't think posters realise that, if introduced, these proposals will simply codify existing de facto policy.

As pp have alluded to, for nearly ten years now it has been compulsory for students who fail to achieve a GCSE grade 4 in Maths or English Language to resit these qualifications until they pass, or turn 18 - whichever comes sooner. It is a condition of their FE funding, which also allows for them to take an equivalent Level 2 qualification if preferred.

Without 4s in English and Maths it is already the case that you cannot embark on a Level 3 qualification post-16. School sixth forms will not take you to study A Levels. Colleges will not admit you to study any Level 3 course, whether A Levels, BTECs, NVQs or whatever. Thankfully this does mean that in many FE colleges the catch-up provision has improved significantly and there is always a big push to get students through on the November resits. Many colleges will then allow the student to transfer onto Level 3 courses.

The anecdotes on this thread about very bright people who have failed maths (although isn't it interesting that it's always maths in these cases?) and then gone on to excel in higher education are inspiring but the door has been shut to those people for nearly ten years now.

[quote worriedatthemoment]@Andouillette yes im awaRe hence why i said a few trade apprenticeships, there hard to get for those that want them
Also any apprenticeship , I work ij housing and we do trade ones every so often but none in other departments and there are so many different types of jobs its a shame we and other sectors don't do more apprenticeships in all sorts of jobs [/quote]
There are apprenticeships in lots of areas - just taking a look at the government website will show you this.

@SartresSoul

I couldn’t pass the maths GCSE, tried it twice. I’m absolutely useless at maths but great at English and history and got an A* in both. Went to study English literature and history at uni and got a first. Lack of a maths GCSE hasn’t held me back at all, I’m an English teacher. I don’t see why it should hold anyone back personally.

But you can't qualify as a teacher without English and Maths GCSE. I have had to produce my twenty-five-year-old exam certificates for every teaching post I have held.

@tttigress

I don't really see why being bad at maths seems to be something perfectly natural on this thread.

It's funny how many people say, btw I'm rubbish at maths (which probably has a knock on effect to their children), yet not many people go around saying, btw I am illiterate!!

Completely agree. Its part of a weirdly anti science culture and the UK is an outlier in its low expectations of university students.

What I find gobsmacking is people falling over themselves to ensure ever increasing numbers of poorer and WC kids saddling themselves with lifetime of extra taxes for a degree which will do absolutely nothing to improve their life chances.

Instead of saddling them with debt address the reasons why a child thought able to complete an academic university education apparently can't get 2*E at A level. Look into the poverty of maths education. Look at restoring some of the historic routes into higher ed and degree level education which don't pile on debts or consume three years of a young person's life and then leaving them no better off on the job market than my friends were at 16 or 18.

@SartresSoul did you do an equivalent maths qualification instead. I had to show my GCSE certificates too.

For me it's the nuance that they aren't saying it'll be a minimum requirement for entry, but that you won't be able to get a student loan. The former I somewhat agree with, the latter absolutely not, it means if someone has the means of being financially supported by family they can still go, if they're poor then nope- make it fair if you're going to change it.

Degrees have been massively devalued by too many people doing them and particularly by too many people doing poorer quality ones that don't lead to good jobs.

There's a perception that it's the lower ranked universities where this is an issue.i dont think that's the case at all. Often those institutions focus on vocational courses like nursing, teaching etc and their graduates walk straight into high demand occupations on graduation. The issue is often the bigger well established city universities with huge number of mediocre arts/politics/business students, who graduate and find they are one of millions fighting for jobs and end up accepting office admin roles where a degree isnt really necessary. It's a total waste of funding and you can see now how many will end up in careers that simply don't pay enough for them to repay the debt.

Also it doesnt help social mobility, as you simply get a two tier system where the wealthy tend to access the most competitive reputable courses while poorer students tend to waste their money or worse courses.

Also it doesnt help social mobility, as you simply get a two tier system where the wealthy tend to access the most competitive reputable courses while poorer students tend to waste their money or worse courses.

Agreed, but it's not just that. Only students who can continue to live at home in London and the south-east, rent-free, are able to access many of the internships or very low-paid entry-level jobs which are the only way in to an increasing number of employers.

Is there any proof that disadvantaged students (or any others) scraping by on Ds and Es miraculously find their “educational mojo” at University and graduate with a shiny 1st? Or is it more likely they scrape by in Uni too and emerge with a ton of debt and not much else to show for it?

Dd had a housemate who scraped into uni, she had come from a disadvantaged background. She had to do a foundation year because of her low grades, she came out with a first and now has a great job. There's one!

Good, too many simpletons going to university studying nonsense. You can get into most former polys if you have a hole in your backside.

Young people are told that university is an "experience" so are forking out money that they may not repay on degrees that may not lead to the promised high earnings. They are led to believe that they are missing out if they don't go.

The government can't control employers demanding a degree for jobs that you used to be done by 16 year old school leavers so I understand why they are changing the rules for universities.

I would quite like to see actual stats on who, as an 18 year old, goes to university without these GCSEs? How many are we talking about?

What about low tariff courses? Many are art degrees. So how many do we have and what does their work pattern look like after graduating? Do we have too many of these courses?

Many jobs now require a degree or it’s “desirable”. Young people aren’t all going off to university for nothing. How are they supposed to compete in the job market?

By changing the job market. If there are fewer graduates, recruitment practice will have to change and revert back.

Although I think the government is right to belatedly start to address the issue of money wasted on degrees that add little value, there is a far simpler and more comprehensive way they could do this. Instead of the government loaning money to students to pay fees, the government could underwrite loans that the universities make to students to pay fees. So government would still provide the up-front money, but any loans written off would be a loss to the universities. That would focus the universities minds on the value of what they are providing, something they are generally in a better position to assess than naïve young students.

I’d be interested to know what happens in other countries but I am pretty sure in Continental Europe there are minimum standards to continue in any form of education (in France you have to repeat school years if you fail in core subjects).
I expect this is also about ensuring that the UK educational system remains internationally competitive.

Writing as a former STEM admissions tutor my concern is for the possibility that this plan will not allow for second (or third) chances. If a one year loan for a Foundation or Access Year could be provided absent qualifications that would help a lot. See @NurseButtercup’s post. We desperately need more nurses.

But for those who are still saying ‘I have a First and a PhD and I wouldn’t have got he maths grade’ -.fine, you still won’t need to!

@poetryandwine
I think we have discussed before that we need to get back to HND/HNC type courses and reintroduce Colleges of Higher Education as a middle way. These courses provide access to degrees but at also a good foundation for work. Young people should study and work at the same time. It worked for many of us back in the day.

The big issue is arts type degrees where students earn very little afterwards. In effect, we, as tax payers pay for these. It’s doubtful if they are value for money. Therefore a change in HE provision is overdue. Not sure tinkering at the edges makes much difference. It’s not addressing the fundamental issues.

Also few degree apprenticeships go to 18 years olds. Barely 3000 a year. Lots of apprenticeships go to adult degrees holders who are retraining. So the older person is in a better position and already has a job in many cases. The younger people find the job market more challenging.

What university course can you get on without maths or English GCSE or 2 E at alevel?

@TizerorFizz, I do share your frustration at the number of students doing degrees that set up unrealistic expectations, and with certain degree programmes and even a few universities. Your suggestions on pathways forward are good ones. But given that youth from the lowest rungs of the economic ladder have a much harder time earning these GCSE qualifications the first time around I do think they, particularly, need a second chance.

To PPs who said you already need the grade 4 to take A Levels: not quite. You can restudy your failed GCSEs during 6th form. Ultimately it is the uni’s decision whether to accept you.

@Vinniepolis

"Is there any proof that disadvantaged students (or any others) scraping by on Ds and Es miraculously find their “educational mojo” at University and graduate with a shiny 1st? Or is it more likely they scrape by in Uni too and emerge with a ton of debt and not much else to show for it?"

I know I'm late to the party but I had to comment on this as I was from an incredibly disadvantaged background.

My GCSE results :

Thrown out of English language and literature
Thrown out of computer studies
Actual exams sat resulted in 3 Cs, 1D, 1E and 1 fail.

My university results:

1st class honours Bsc degree.

@araiwa
English degrees don’t require Maths GCSE if you look at entry requirements. I’ve just looked at a RG university English undergrad course.

I also think a lot of universities don’t look at GCSEs unless they say they will take them into account.

I suspect dance, art and other portfolio or vocational courses have low tariffs. Not sure about EE. DDs from UAL was CC. She got way above this but portfolio was what counted.