Government to propose minimum grades needed to access student loans.

[pancakesandsyrupplease]

Here;

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2022/feb/22/fears-that-minimum-grades-for-student-loans-in-england-could-narrow-access?CMP=ShareiOSAppp_Other

AIBU to think that the universities should be the ones to make the admission decisions, and that this will do what the article says: restrict access to those from disadvantaged backgrounds.

I felt so sad when I read this. Society feels so bloody regressive right now

Presumably you could use the appropriate nomenclature if you wanted to C8H10N4O2 but it's kind of pointless to in this country? Eur Eng is (or at least was, pre Brexit) technically recognised in the UK but my DH doesn't use it even though he is entitled to, and barely knows anyone who does. He uses C Eng on his business cards and email signature though as that is a bit more likely to be understood.
The engineering profession in this country is definitely hugely undervalued though. I'm not quite sure why. DH thinks it is partly self inflicted and that the professional bodies could have done more, including protecting the title. It is very ironic that I have a title that is in fact only honorary but is understood by everyone and largely respected, whereas he has a real one that nobody even recognises. He did a placement in Germany as a student and couldn't believe the difference in the way that he was perceived. Engineering student in the UK = geeky saddo. Engineering student in Germany = aspiring professional with status and prospects. Very strange.

@AgeingDoc
My DH (CEng, FICE, FIStructE, FCIHT) totally agrees with your DH. The title should be protected. You cannot be a Dr without actually being one! Or a barrister. The word engineer is far too open to misinterpretation which reduces the importance of the role.

Up thread someone worried about where degree apprentices would go. As there are not many of them that are 18 (circa 3000 pa) I would say the nearest university that’s not post 92 but could be a post 92 poly. These were traditionally the home of part time learning for people who had jobs. Why can’t they be in the future? Employers pay a wage and DC doesn’t need a loan.

MN does over emphasise maths (FM in particular) for engineering. For lots of engineers it’s not needed. DH doesn’t have it. Most of his employees don’t have it. However they are more than competent engineers finding solutions. Programming a computer all day is not what most of them do. If they do want that, enormous consultants would be pleased to see them.

Just to be clear: maths is needed but not necessarily FM.

@AgeingDoc

Presumably you could use the appropriate nomenclature if you wanted to C8H10N4O2 but it's kind of pointless to in this country? Eur Eng is (or at least was, pre Brexit) technically recognised in the UK but my DH doesn't use it even though he is entitled to, and barely knows anyone who does. He uses C Eng on his business cards and email signature though as that is a bit more likely to be understood. The engineering profession in this country is definitely hugely undervalued though. I'm not quite sure why. DH thinks it is partly self inflicted and that the professional bodies could have done more, including protecting the title. It is very ironic that I have a title that is in fact only honorary but is understood by everyone and largely respected, whereas he has a real one that nobody even recognises. He did a placement in Germany as a student and couldn't believe the difference in the way that he was perceived. Engineering student in the UK = geeky saddo. Engineering student in Germany = aspiring professional with status and prospects. Very strange.

Oh sure and in fact my company does put chartered/fellowship status alongside academics it on business cards. However as you say, its largely meaningless when its not protected and anyone can entitle themselves "engineer". DC on the other hand has his recently acquired status protected as a recognised title which amuses him no end.

I agree some of this is lack of fight from the professional bodies but a lot is cultural in the UK. My title is often protected (had to be evidenced) when I work overseas!

@C8H10N4O2
But they cannot get the CEng etc. if they haven’t earned it.

[quote TizerorFizz]@C8H10N4O2
But they cannot get the CEng etc. if they haven’t earned it.[/quote]
The "engineer" title is not protected and tbh, anyone can put CEng or IETP and at most you can claim fraud (and then have to show a loss as a consequence of the fraudulent title).

There is no legal protection to the title itself in the way there is in some European countries. That was what I was thinking about.

My DD (23) who is finishing a MFL degree would be up the creek with this. She has failed GCSE maths 3 times. She has dyscalculia and I don’t think she will ever pass it unfortunately.

@Volterra

My DD (23) who is finishing a MFL degree would be up the creek with this. She has failed GCSE maths 3 times. She has dyscalculia and I don’t think she will ever pass it unfortunately.

Did your daughter get at least EE in her A Levels? Because that’s the alternate criteria, so she’d be fine.

It is regressive and devised to cut costs. It also slaps the face of 'levelling up' because students who can afford not to have loans may not need GCSE maths and English.
I am another person who went back to study after failing to complete secondary education. I had mental health issues and spent years in and out of hospital. Going on to study, via the Access route, allowed me to feel like I had achieved something. I ended up getting a first class degree, a Masters and a PhD. I also attained my English and maths qualifications along the way.
I now teach students from disadvantaged backgrounds or who have barriers to learning. I feel like I am giving something back to society.
If access to financial support depends on academic 'achievement', then the most vulnerable people will be the ones who are most negatively affected.

This may already have been said, but university is not for everyone. Lots of people are ignoring the alternate criteria of EE at A Level. These are the lowest grades available at A Level, below that it’s a U. Students who cannot pass their A Levels will flounder at uni (if they get in). And if they do get in, they are likely going to an institution with very low entry requirements/expectations and therefore will be unlikely to ever land a job as a direct result of that degree that will earn them enough to pay back the loan. So essentially the tax payer is funding them and will never ever be paid back.

Don’t get me wrong, I don’t think the government have the right approach to equal opportunities in education. But rather than getting wound up that kids who are not a good fit for uni can’t go, we should be screaming about the fact that there are so few good alternatives for those kids. Vocational further education is shockingly underfunded. If the money saved from withdrawing these loans was redirected to that, that would be a pretty good policy in my view. (Admittedly haven’t read the proposal, but from previous form, I doubt this is their plan. Happy to be told I’m wrong!)

When ⅓ of students fail to get GCSE passes in English and Maths nationally, surely the focus should be on improving education to allow failure to be an exception?

I really do not agree that just because someone is poor they deserve to go to university. Yes, the focus should be on improving GCSEs. When someone has a degree but poor English or Maths (or both) it tempers their job prospects. Rich or poor. We need to work up from nursery education and make sure university is for those who can truly benefit. At the moment we know thousands don’t and the state has paid. Levelling up isn’t university access it’s access to a great education from day 1.

My cousin went to Cambridge with no GCSE maths...

A friend got into a red brick university to study architecture, without her maths. She's doing exceptionally well in her career.

I took my GCSE maths in the 90's when the highest grade I could get ( in foundation level) was a D. I remember being really annoyed at the prospect of having to study & waste my time on a GCSE that in my view, I'd failed before I even sat it. It felt like we'd been written off & I didn't bother studying for it.

I got it 10years later...

@Cap89, I was informed earlier on this thread that although pupils like @Volterra’s DD and others ought to still be able to start A Levels while resitting maths GCSE in practice they frequently cannot.

Dyscalculia ought to be a SN with some kind of exemption but how that will play out isn’t clear.

@Alicesweewonders
We are talking about a change to requirements. Lots of unis don’t ask for gcse maths. English quite possibly but not necessarily. They have been more interested in subject proficiency.

@Cap89, apologies - I ignored the EE at A level as an alternative. She did part of a BTEC instead and got to where she is now in a roundabout way.

She was at the time able to resist Maths GCSE alongside her BTEC. Lack of it then bit her in the backside when local university wouldn’t let her do Foundation Art without it. She got to where she is now in a very roundabout way and when told no to something refused to give up. Suspect not having Maths will be an issue again in the not too distant future after graduation .

@Volterra
It’s really going to depend upon what she wants to do. Teaching will be an issue but other jobs might be less bothered and not ask for gcse subjects. She’s just going to have to match her skills to what employers want.

@TizerorFizz what maths many of which you will never use unless in a certain job
I have never once had to use trigonometry or algebra all my adult life
Current english we teach children again not all of it used in everyday life or jobs
Some children just don't fair well in exams as well or pick it up later than 16 , if they can do the course and get good grades that is more important surely as an employer will likely look at your latest education achievement , and someone can maybe re take maths etc again when older and feeling more able, , confident as they have now got a degree

@worriedatthemoment
I know. I don’t have maths O level. However employers might have lots of applicants and ask for gcse results and subjects. Some universities do! So no, they won’t all disregard GCSEs. As DH finds, degrees in a subject don’t necessarily mean employability. Many employers now sift by exam profile, tests and other assessments as well as interview. However some won’t be so bothered. Many will want the maths and English though so it’s a case of ruling them out.

@TizerorFizz I just think maths could be made more relevant
I don't have maths GCSE its not held me back and I have done a lot of accounts work as that kind of maths makes sense for me.
But I suppose I get taken on as relevant work experience

Relevant for what though? I had to study Quantitive Methods for Business on my HNC course. I was dire. I still believe to this day that they let me continue (passed with a D) because all my other subjects were AAA! Before that I had done basic accounting on a course. Scraped through that too. Again As at everything else.

At work I used spreadsheets and even went on a programming course. I was crap at that too. I have a limit to my understanding of numbers and the most I ever learnt was differential equations (enough to attempt an exam question) because DH helped me at home). I more or less failed every maths exam at school. However I survived because I’m a lot better at other subjects! These days so many DC have degrees, employers do differentiate somehow. GCSEs therefore might be used for that.

If you read the consultation paper they set out the reasoning behind the requirement for either 4s at gcse Maths/English OR the equivalent of 2 x E at A level.

Also students can still access unis via certain Foundation degrees or as a mature student without meeting the above criteria re maths/english gcse or the 2 x Es at A level etc.

I need to read it in full!

I’m surprised they got onto the nursing degree without a Maths GCSE. I did the access to healthcare course but entry requirement for all the uni’s I applied for included Maths GCSE or equivalent x

I got a D in maths GCSE and tried it twice. I went on to get B&C at A level (had a child by then and a job too) and a 2:1 at Uni. I have a well paying job I think (50k plus) so I think it wasn’t a wrong decision I went to Uni. Rather hilariously I did 2yrs of AAT (accountancy) as part of a job and once was the budget manager of a very large public service budget. Never any problem as I had excel and other databases as my friend!!