Government to propose minimum grades needed to access student loans.

[pancakesandsyrupplease]

Here;

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2022/feb/22/fears-that-minimum-grades-for-student-loans-in-england-could-narrow-access?CMP=ShareiOSAppp_Other

AIBU to think that the universities should be the ones to make the admission decisions, and that this will do what the article says: restrict access to those from disadvantaged backgrounds.

I felt so sad when I read this. Society feels so bloody regressive right now

I probably agree tbh. If people can’t even get a 4 or 2 Es ultimately university isn’t for them. I know this because I graduated in recent years and even though I was “bad” at math I still managed a 4 without too much struggle or much study. The amount of people on my course that had to be spoonfed with english and grammar classes within the uni was gobsmacking, because our school was doing so poor in terms of quality writing. If they can’t get a 4/5 in English GCSE how are they expecting to cope writing 3000 word essays or dissertations? They can’t.

I know on the other thread people cry out it’s unfair to those with learning disabilities or what not, and sure, maybe it is. That’s why other routes such as apprenticeships and full time work is an option. University isn’t the all of all. Most people complaining about this are the ones also complaining how shite uni actually is.

@WhoppingBigBackside

It also explains why so many journalists are so crap at there jobs

their jobs

Muphry's law

@FindmeuptheFarawaytree

But if most jobs require a degree then the 'floodgates' need to be open or people won't have access to jobs.

This! If most jobs that aren't in hospitality, retail or beauty for example, need a degree, then what are students supposed to do? Years ago you could start at the bottom and work your way up without a degree, but many jobs now require a degree at entry level.

@sst1234, look up bundling and sale of student debt.

Nobody is taking money from anyone. It isn't a giant game of whack a mole.

@RedskyThisNight

The article linked to doesn't mention mature students. I have to admit that was my first thought - that just because you failed maths and English years ago, doesn't mean you wouldn't be capable of a university education now. Also whilst functional maths and English are important, I'm not sure that's necessarily true of maths and English GCSE. And if, for example, you're planning to study History, does it matter that you didn't pass maths GCSE?

I would say that maths is essential if you wish to go to uni, whatever you plan to study. If only to work out the effect of compound interest upon that gargantuan loan.

@AgeingDoc Depends on the course students take. Many schools like students to have solid grades in Maths, English, Science, etc, however, many Humanities, Arts etc related subjects at uni may not require Maths for entry on course.

@NurseButtercup

This will also have an impact upon mature students attempting to retrain & have a career.

Will it?

I’m a mature student and had to prove my GCSE Maths - because I’m a STEM student.

Half of the people on my Access Course were redoing their Maths GCSE as they’d got a D or below as teens. I got an A so didn’t have to resit.

Nobody would be able to do my course without a firm grounding in GCSE Maths.

I see why they are doing it, and I think it's wrong that some young people do degrees, when they got their GCSEs under false pretences (ie; teachers doing half their course work for them, and took the exam 5, 6, 7 times until they got a C,) and then got Ds and Es in their A levels, then got into university via 'clearing!'

My 2 DD are very smart and academic (not a stealth brag - they are,) and they were studying at uni, next to people who could barely string a sentence together, and didn't understand basic grammar, had limited maths skills, and knew very little about anything. And they knew hardly anything about the degree subject they were studying... Some of them dropped out as they couldn't cope with university level studying...

So yeah I agree that people need to have good A level results before student loans are granted.

HOWEVER....

I don't think this should be implemented for at LEAST 4 years. Because, the education of millions of children has been affected so badly by covid, and all the lockdowns. Soooooo many children are quite a bit behind now, so to penalise them for not having great GCSE and A level results is extremely unfair.......

I would say that maths is essential if you wish to go to uni, whatever you plan to study. If only to work out the effect of compound interest upon that gargantuan loan.

Absolutely. Functional maths. No need to remember the cosine rule, how you transform a triangle or how to work out where a line crosses a parabola.

@Mooloolabababy then employers will need to return their hiring policies to the old way of looking at candidates. So many jobs didn't need a degree in those days, and they ought not to need one now.

This news has really upset me. They just briefly threw it in as one of the last pieces of news on itv’s show when, to me, it should have been second to the Ukraine situation. Yet again, this government are making massive changes whilst our heads are turned.
It greatly concerns me for my daughter who is very creative and may want to pursue a design type degree. She may struggle (she’s only 7 so obviously and hopefully this could change) to get the grades now needed. Not a chance could I afford to pay her through university. The class divide is just getting deeper and murkier.

@FindmeuptheFarawaytree

But if most jobs require a degree then the 'floodgates' need to be open or people won't have access to jobs.

I would hope this helps to prevent that 'need for a degree' that has cropped up in so many jobs now, unnecessarily (think support services/PA/admin}. A degree crept in as a lazy and over the top screening tool for many jobs that just required enthusiasm and a bit of common sense, and as much as I supported labour in the 90s, education for all was a huge mistake.

As someone with dyslexia I find it deeply concerning.
I actually improved the more education I did once I had found what worked and proper coping strategies for it. My undergrad I got a 2.1 my postgraduate was a distinction both in Science subjects.....my GCSE maths grade wasn't great I got a C by 1 mark but my A levels were better in Science subjects! I now do a science related job too!

Given its incredibly hard to even get a lot of learning difficulties like dyslexia or dispraxia diagnosed how are kids with this supposed to access the correct support so they can achieve these grades?

I'm far from stupid my school just gave me no support and I won't be alone in this.
I don't know why you would cut off opportunities to vast numbers of students I couldn't do my job without my degrees.

"I don't think this should be implemented for at LEAST 4 years. Because, the education of millions of children has been affected so badly by covid, and all the lockdowns. Soooooo many children are quite a bit behind now, so to penalise them for not having great GCSE and A level results is extremely unfair......."
It's not a penalty! It's saving them having to take out student loans and waste 3 of their lives in University to get worthless degrees.

@RedskyThisNight

I would say that maths is essential if you wish to go to uni, whatever you plan to study. If only to work out the effect of compound interest upon that gargantuan loan.

Absolutely. Functional maths. No need to remember the cosine rule, how you transform a triangle or how to work out where a line crosses a parabola.

Compound interest was something I remember covering during A level maths (it is part of sequences & series, along with things like asset depreciation).

@BearOfEasttown

I see why they are doing it, and I think it's wrong that some young people do degrees, when they got their GCSEs under false pretences (ie; teachers doing half their course work for them, and took the exam 5, 6, 7 times until they got a C,) and then got Ds and Es in their A levels, then got into university via 'clearing!'

My 2 DD are very smart and academic (not a stealth brag - they are,) and they were studying at uni, next to people who could barely string a sentence together, and didn't understand basic grammar, had limited maths skills, and knew very little about anything. And they knew hardly anything about the degree subject they were studying... Some of them dropped out as they couldn't cope with university level studying...

So yeah I agree that people need to have good A level results before student loans are granted.

HOWEVER....

I don't think this should be implemented for at LEAST 4 years. Because, the education of millions of children has been affected so badly by covid, and all the lockdowns. Soooooo many children are quite a bit behind now, so to penalise them for not having great GCSE and A level results is extremely unfair.......

There's also the argument that many students that enter university via clearing go on to excel throughout university, work extremely hard and achieve the same degree result as their peers with higher A Level entry grades than them. Many high achieving students also drop out of university...

Is there any proof that disadvantaged students (or any others) scraping by on Ds and Es miraculously find their “educational mojo” at University and graduate with a shiny 1st?

There's plenty of evidence that students from non-selective state schools perform at university at the same level on average as those with two grades higher from private or selective schools. So allowing someone with DD from a private school to have tuition fee loans while not allowing someone with EE from a comprehensive to have them appears unfair.

The jobs will still be there. Employers will just have to adjust their standards. Most jobs in this country do not require a degree. It's ridiculous that we have people working in call centres, coffee shops, supermarkets etc that are paying off student loans that they ran up getting degrees that they aren't using.

This.

Obviously, however, what needs to change is society's attitudes towards these lower paid but valuable jobs (we'd all miss them if they suddenly disappointed).

There needs to be more respect for all jobs - with better pay and working conditions.

Meanwhile it would be great if we saw a revival of the adult education sector. Well funded part-time, evening, and weekend courses, offering affordable (if not free) and assessible courses - vocational and academic. There are some fantastic free courses online, but I think it's important to have opportunities for in-person too (and some vocational courses can't easily be done virtually).

Of course employers, particularly small businesses, can only afford to raise wages by so much and it still won't be high enough to meet the wildly out of control house prices.

And, increasingly, many degree jobs also can't pay enough. Younger doctors, teachers, and others are facing a lifetime in expensive and insecure private rentals. It's mostly a problem confined to London for now (and therefore many people won't care) but, like the general housing crisis, it will eventually spread.

50%+ of the population getting a degree was never going to help people leave disadvantage. The way to do that is by tackling the public health housing and homelessness emergency.

The UK is the outlier on this, most countries require a certain level of maths to be admitted into university, and maths and literacy are studied up to 18. In my opinion if you can't do basic maths and english, you shouldn't be going to university.

I don't really see why being bad at maths seems to be something perfectly natural on this thread.

It's funny how many people say, btw I'm rubbish at maths (which probably has a knock on effect to their children), yet not many people go around saying, btw I am illiterate!!

@AgathaAllAlong

The UK is the outlier on this, most countries require a certain level of maths to be admitted into university, and maths and literacy are studied up to 18. In my opinion if you can't do basic maths and english, you shouldn't be going to university.

Agree.

don't think this should be implemented for at LEAST 4 years. Because, the education of millions of children has been affected so badly by covid, and all the lockdowns. Soooooo many children are quite a bit behind now, so to penalise them for not having great GCSE and A level results is extremely unfair.......

That's a good point.

And also we need to look at the reasons why disadvantaged students achieve lower A level grades. Deal with the cause. Improve state education, tackle poverty, fund public services including social services and mental health care.

And - vitally - sort out the public health housing and homelessness emergency. Substandard and insecure housing significantly impacts on a child's education and life opportunities.

The other change that is reportedly being announced tomorrow as part of the same proposal and will affect far more people is that they are planning to reduce the threshold for repaying the loan from approx £27.2k (for graduates on the newer plan) to £25k. (Graduates on the older £3k tuition fee loans have a threshold around £20/21k I think). Plus extending the payment period so it isn’t wiped after 30 years, but 40 years.

I do think a lot of students come into their own at university. Poor school experiences, problems at home, areas with low aspirations are all parked at university where the environment is so different.

I went abroad for a few months after A’levels and met other people my age. Getting out of a disadvantaged area of the city into the countryside, a different society with less class barriers and a positive attitude towards learning completely changed me. I came back with such a strong focus and confidence. Some 18 year olds are very mature, others are slow developers/less confident. I don’t think we can continue to discriminate against students who have gone to poor state schools and just fallen through the cracks - and a 4 is not unobtainable, it’s a low bar.