Government to propose minimum grades needed to access student loans.

[pancakesandsyrupplease]

Here;

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2022/feb/22/fears-that-minimum-grades-for-student-loans-in-england-could-narrow-access?CMP=ShareiOSAppp_Other

AIBU to think that the universities should be the ones to make the admission decisions, and that this will do what the article says: restrict access to those from disadvantaged backgrounds.

I felt so sad when I read this. Society feels so bloody regressive right now

@Sprogonthetyne

I understating the rational, and agree that people doing a micks mouse degree with a bunch of D' and E's helps no one. But I think using student loans in this way is wrong, they seem to be intentionally leaving the door open to 'thick kids of the elite' whilst closing it to others with similar grades.

I would prefer a move to make universities only except candidates with certain grades, maybe by making it a condition of there charter. But that should apply to all students, not just those who would need a loan.

I agree with this.

It seems highly irresponsible as older adults/parents/government to allow teenagers to go down a route whereby they will be massively in debt by the age of 21 when they will likely have little benefit from that financial outlay (remember it wasn't that many generations ago that you could buy a home for the amount that graduates are leaving university in debt with) .

@Whydoesthecatalwaysdothat

In any other ways, Why? I think we have taken the basics and over complicated them and failed to really focus on the complicated stuff. I went to a polytechnic in 1990, not great A’levels as had an awful lot of time off school due to illness. I am surprised at English graduates who actually studied communication and no literature. Plus a lot else but I am conscious that people properly say similar about me when they discover my grades.

Maybe I've misread it, but isn't itnsaying you'll need st least a 4 in both maths and English. Or is it a 5?

Either way, that's not a big hurdle (I'm assuming there will be workarounds for SEN)

Huh? Have you actually followed this story or just tried to shoehorn your political views into it?
This drive to get so many people to university has been an utter failure. There are billions £ worth of loans that will not be repaid in 30 years. Do you know why that is? Because so many people are coming out of university with ‘Mickey mouse’ degrees without any chance of ever getting a job that pays enough for them to meet the repayment threshold.
People are studying media studies or whatever useless degree replaced it, while we have a skills shortage in this country and a labour shortage too.
So I ask again, did you actually follows the story or just use it as a vehicle to let off steam about your political views?

The devil will be in the detail I suppose. I’ve read that it will be English and Maths at Grade 4, English and Maths at Grade 5, 2 E’s at A level, or any combination.

But ultimately it is wrong. It should be up to universities to judge candidates and their circumstances, the government should not be gatekeeping the finance to do this because then it does penalise disadvantaged students and it will perpetuate the ‘I’m too thick to go to uni’ stereotype which already does SO much damage.

There’s also a potential issue with an example for mature students, and how this will work with the lifelong loan entitlement and various other contradicting bits of policy.

It also seems to be going in the opposite direction of the T Level policy…

@pancakesandsyrupplease

Here;

[[https://www.theguardian.com/education/2022/feb/22/fears-that-minimum-grades-for-student-loans-in-england-could-narrow-access?CMP=Share]]iOSAppp_Other

AIBU to think that the universities should be the ones to make the admission decisions, and that this will do what the article says: restrict access to those from disadvantaged backgrounds.

I felt so sad when I read this. Society feels so bloody regressive right now

No, universities just see the pound signs. They're degree factories now.

@liliainterfrutices

My husband has a double First and PhD from Cambridge. He could never pass Maths. It’s right, though, that he could go to university.

No one is being stopped from going to university. They will need to access funding in a way that doesn’t leave the public to pick up the tab if they can’t pay it back.

2x E at A level was always the basic minimum to matriculate. I didn't realise that had ever been dropped (other than for mature students and others with unconventional routes)

I’m sorry, but I just don’t trust that all universities are making ethical decisions when it comes to admitting students. I work with disadvantaged teens who have been sold a promise that university will open up pathways for them. They have handed over thousands for courses they struggle on, with very little academic support and even less pastoral - and that’s before paying full fees for a very poor remote learning offer in some cases over the last two years.

I don’t think anyone who can’t first achieve at least two A Levels above an E grade (not at the first attempt necessarily but nonetheless achieved) should be doing a degree course. There should be decent alternatives.

I'm of the generation that had to matriculate to get into university.
There is no way I could have done the degree or the work I do now without a maths GCSE.

I actually agree with this.
I've worked in the hospitality sector for decades and can honestly say that most of the uni students who I've employed are at best functional illiterate and incapable of doing simple maths yet are doing multimedia degrees or journalism (other micky mouse degrees too) honestly most of them should be doing basic maths and English courses at the local college as it would give them much better life chances than wasting 3-4 years at uni and then being just as unemployable as they are when I'm forced to sack them for incompetence.
It also explains why so many journalists are so crap at there jobs

I immediately thought about my peers retraining to become nurses, all failed maths & english at school. Completed the access course or the foundation degree in order to qualify for the nursing degree. Approximately 60% of my cohort joined the nursing degree via this route. If they were excluded from the student loans they wouldn't be nurses.

They specifically called out mature students as not falling under this proposed scheme and the proposal was 2*E or equivalent. A mature student completing an Access type course would cover that requirement fairly easily unless its really badly drafted.

I'm surprised there is so little concern for WC kids being duped into taking out huge, unrepayable loans under variable conditions to take degrees which won't will never give them a return. Universities are a business these days and have a vested interest in keeping the numbers up.

I applauded the expansion of degree level education when it started but its no secret that the value of many degrees is no more than old fashioned A levels which is a massive con job on many disadvantaged 18 year olds. I'd rather see better technical opportunities, more apprenticeships with degree paths and better access for mature students for late developers, all of which genuinely help disadvantaged teenagers.

It also explains why so many journalists are so crap at there jobs

their jobs

@FindmeuptheFarawaytree

Why should the loans be reliant on this? Typical Tory policy - why is it only those who need loans who lose access to such courses? Trying to be popular with their usual crowd again. Many courses have minimum requirements anyway. Seems like a smoke and mirrors story and a further distraction technique.

Because if you wish to waste £27k and three years when you weren't really suited to academics, it's your own money you're wasting. If the Treasury is paying on the other hand (through the student loan system where many never repay), then the Treasury wants good value for its investment.

@WhoppingBigBackside yes pick on the dyslexic person does it make you feel better than me

@AppleKatie

I don’t think anyone who can’t first achieve at least two A Levels above an E grade (not at the first attempt necessarily but nonetheless achieved) should be doing a degree course. There should be decent alternatives.

I agree. Fair enough some people are no good at English, maths, or both, and they may well be aiming to do a degree that doesn’t need it. But you have free choice over your A levels and presumably pick ones you’re good at, you’re interested in, and that bear at least a slight relevance to the degree you’d like to do. If you can’t get 2 Es then I think you need to rethink.

How many students will this actually affect? There can’t be that many university students without maths & English GCSE and also without at least 2 Es at A level surely?

The article linked to doesn't mention mature students. I have to admit that was my first thought - that just because you failed maths and English years ago, doesn't mean you wouldn't be capable of a university education now. Also whilst functional maths and English are important, I'm not sure that's necessarily true of maths and English GCSE. And if, for example, you're planning to study History, does it matter that you didn't pass maths GCSE?

I'm surprised there is so little concern for WC kids being duped into taking out huge, unrepayable loans under variable conditions to take degrees which won't will never give them a return. Universities are a business these days and have a vested interest in keeping the numbers up.

Indeed. It should be a national scandal.

What job (paying graduate salary) doesn’t need you to be able to have a grasp of English and Math at GCSE level.

@ThanksItHasPockets

I’m waiting for the detail to be published tomorrow. If the proposal is a ‘one-shot’ approach to GCSE Maths and English then this will be very wrong. If, however, a candidate can’t get 4s in English and Maths GCSE or an equivalent level 2 qualification despite multiple resits then I think that a university degree is very unlikely to be the right path for them and they deserve decent guidance and good quality alternative pathways.

But that surely depends on what they are going to study at university? My brother has a 2:1 in history, and never managed higher than an E in maths. My daughter graduated with a 1st in Costume design from a prestigious art college, she didn’t pass GCSE maths until after she graduated.

I have to confess that I didn't realise you could even go to University without passes in Maths and English at GCSE. I'm getting a bit long in the tooth now but in my day, I'm pretty sure that O level passes in Maths and English Language were required for matriculation at most if not all Universities regardless of what you were studying and I didn't realise it had changed. All the courses that my children have looked into seem to still have those requirements. You can't get into 6th form at their school without 5s in Maths and English in fact.
As long as suitable allowances are made for mature students or others with a non standard education it doesn't actually sound unreasonable
to me - and it's very rare I support any of this government's policies.

I was a straight c student at school. Didn’t try and didn’t do well but scraped a pass. I got a first in law at uni having attended college (to do an unrelated HND )first as my route in. I wasn’t thick I just went to a school where they didn’t help kids who didn’t shine academically so I was left to fester.

I know I didn’t fail but it seems unfair that kids
Who don’t do well in exam situations but who have unrealised potential may not get the chance to realise said potential.

@Vinniepolis, the government sells loans and makes money from them. Students taking out loans are not taking money out of circulation for the rest of society.

@FindmeuptheFarawaytree

But if most jobs require a degree then the 'floodgates' need to be open or people won't have access to jobs.

The jobs will still be there. Employers will just have to adjust their standards. Most jobs in this country do not require a degree. It's ridiculous that we have people working in call centres, coffee shops, supermarkets etc that are paying off student loans that they ran up getting degrees that they aren't using.