Government to propose minimum grades needed to access student loans.

[pancakesandsyrupplease]

Here;

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2022/feb/22/fears-that-minimum-grades-for-student-loans-in-england-could-narrow-access?CMP=ShareiOSAppp_Other

AIBU to think that the universities should be the ones to make the admission decisions, and that this will do what the article says: restrict access to those from disadvantaged backgrounds.

I felt so sad when I read this. Society feels so bloody regressive right now

the whole system is bollocks anyway and the reason we fall behind on skilled labour.

Take electronics and engineering for example, the best people at that are not academically minded.

they should judge people on passion for the subject, knowledge of it, portfolio of work towards it

I would quite like to see actual stats on who, as an 18 year old, goes to university without these GCSEs? How many are we talking about?

me too, would like to know. I know one lady in her 40s who has Uni degree & failed O-level math (she says).

Amuses me that MNers are very elitist & don't want degrees "devalued." Used to be a lot of clamouring on MN about how Grammar schools should be brought back, too.

I'd like to see similar size funds invested in every young person's training, not just for getting Uni degrees.

There are 9 'Higher' apprenticeships within 15 miles of my postcode, 1 Degree, 66 Advanced. Is that how available they are in most areas?

Take electronics and engineering for example, the best people at that are not academically minded
Err WHAT?!
Engineering and electronics not academic? You must be joking. They are probably some of the careers where the necessity for mathematical ability is the most easy to see in fact.
Engineers, of all varieties - mechanical, chemical, civil, electronic etc etc are probably the professionals we are all relying on most in our every day lives, and their degree requirements are rightly academically demanding.
Would you trust someone "not academically minded" to do the calculations around how a bridge will react in high winds, or to design the electronic control systems for commercial aircraft? You'd be happy knowing that a non academic person signed off the crash tests that your car went through? I know engineers who do all those jobs and they are without doubt at least as academically minded as any doctor I have ever worked with.

[quote poetryandwine]@TizerorFizz, I do share your frustration at the number of students doing degrees that set up unrealistic expectations, and with certain degree programmes and even a few universities. Your suggestions on pathways forward are good ones. But given that youth from the lowest rungs of the economic ladder have a much harder time earning these GCSE qualifications the first time around I do think they, particularly, need a second chance.

To PPs who said you already need the grade 4 to take A Levels: not quite. You can restudy your failed GCSEs during 6th form. Ultimately it is the uni’s decision whether to accept you.[/quote]
That was me, and I did say that I was describing de facto policy. You’re correct that this is possible in theory and perhaps it varies regionally but in my experience school sixth forms won’t even consider you for A levels without 4s (sometimes 5s or more) in English and Maths and FE colleges are very reluctant too.

@VelvetChairGirl
What you said about engineering is wholly wrong! My DH is a Chartered Engineer. The degree educated engineers work on the projects where their greater expertise and knowledge is required. Not being an Incorporated or Chartered Engineer won’t get you into the higher ranks of engineering. We need people who are professionally qualified.

@YeOldeTrout
I’m not aware schools used to care about GCSEs or O levels pre A level study. A family member has AAA at A level (late 79s) and a degree and I don’t have maths O level either. I’m professionally qualified in my field. Degrees don’t ask for maths GCSE level 4. Plenty don’t need it.

@AgeingDoc
People think engineers mend washing machines! Such is the lack of understanding in this country!

Going back 20 years, I've no idea if it's the same now, I was able to get a part time job in tesco as I had a pass in gcse maths and English. My sister was turned down for the job as she had failed her gcse maths.
Tesco had just opened here and were recruiting heavily.
In most NI grammar schools you aren't allowed to return for a level without passing gcse maths and english. Secondary schools will allow a return to resit along with a levels or hnds.

Thank you, @YippieKayakOtherBuckets. Your post was moderate and informative. I was thinking more of a post above yours in the thread describing policy more dogmatically.

Failed GCSEs are outside my sphere of knowledge. (Except for my statement that ultimately each uni makes its own admissions decisions.). Given what you describe, how do pupils move forward? TIA

@AgeingDoc

Take electronics and engineering for example, the best people at that are not academically minded Err WHAT?! Engineering and electronics not academic? You must be joking. They are probably some of the careers where the necessity for mathematical ability is the most easy to see in fact. Engineers, of all varieties - mechanical, chemical, civil, electronic etc etc are probably the professionals we are all relying on most in our every day lives, and their degree requirements are rightly academically demanding. Would you trust someone "not academically minded" to do the calculations around how a bridge will react in high winds, or to design the electronic control systems for commercial aircraft? You'd be happy knowing that a non academic person signed off the crash tests that your car went through? I know engineers who do all those jobs and they are without doubt at least as academically minded as any doctor I have ever worked with.

IME people saying this don't know the difference between an engineer and a technician.

@TizerorFizz well a washing machine engineer does
Engineer is a bit of a broad term and can cover many different jobs

@YippieKayakOtherBuckets yes for my ds to so level 3 btech he had to have min 4 in english and maths and 3 other subjects , otherwise he would of had to do a level 2 and resit his maths / english
Infact my nephew had exactly this he had to start on lower plumbing as he didn't pass maths and had to take it alongside and could only progress to level 2 if he passed
A levels they often want much higher than a 4 to study them .
I would actually like to know the percentage of 18 year olds who do a uni course who haven't got both english and maths gcse and if not a high a level/ btech result
I bet its pretty low

@araiwa not many I would imagine
My ds got turned down for a few with CCC a level equivalent and 4's in all gcse taken incl english and maths

@TizerorFizz I think thats a good point i can't see it being many in studying business , sport , english lit etc as these all need higher grades than this to get in

@worriedatthemoment I also bet it is very low. My point was that PPs saying ‘I have a First Class Degree but I never passed. GCSE maths’ can still in theory proceed to take A Levels and go to uni. Turns out this may be difficult in practice.

Many Humanities programmes would make an exception to the GCSE maths requirement for an AAA student. Agreed it is unlikely to happen very often

When I was an undergraduate not that long ago I was required to have 2 /3? A'level passes (so E grade plus) for government grants. I think when tuition fees came in there was also a requirement for a C grade in Maths and English. Given that these are now what are classes functional grades I don't actually see the problem with the equivalents being a funding bar. (Yes you should be able to resit to get those grades if need be).

What's the point of going to university for 3 years, accruing all the associated debt and then failing as you never had the ability to pass to begin with?

Clearly there is an issue with what the grade boundaries are. And I expect there is a calculation in there about the GCSE / A level grades who manage to pay back at least some of their loans...

@worriedatthemoment
Professional engineers are either Chartered or Incorporated Engineers. They need a lengthy academic and professional training. Your life might be in their hands. There are many branches of engineering but saying it’s the same job as mending a kitchen appliance is not what a professional engineer does. Who do you think designs railways, roads, bridges, power stations, aircraft, the national grid, cars, chemical products etc? The guy who comes from Miele in a red van? We need more professional engineers. We have shortages. We need to understand differences in qualifications and expertise. Therefore we need to channel government money into the right areas of learning.,

@TizerorFizz my DH has just reminded me of a poll that the IMechE did in schools years ago to identify the most famous British Engineer in history. I think they were expecting Brunel and Stephenson to be neck and neck. But no, the clear winner was apparently Kevin from Coronation Street, who is neither an Engineer nor a real person! Says it all really.
Disclaimer: I have nothing against motor mechanics. It is a skilled and valuable job which should be respected in its own right. But they are not Engineers.

[quote TizerorFizz]@AgeingDoc
People think engineers mend washing machines! Such is the lack of understanding in this country![/quote]
In some European countries the term "engineer" is protected like the word "vet", so you can only call yourself such if you have a degree in engineering. It's just not a profession that's respected in the UK sadly, related to the casual way in which being rubbish at Maths, and not caring, is normalised.

There is a glaring gap in the UK for vocational skills training for non-academic young people.

I also wish the Open University is as cheap as it was when I did it; that was a proper leveller.

I used to be a software engineer and the fact that I 'worked with computers' means that friends and relatives would demand that I fixed their electronic or electrical devices.

Many occupations aren't represented in things like tv dramas, films and novels.

Don't forget universities teach apprenticeship degrees too. They tend to attract more disadvantaged learners.

I doubt this government has any inkling about those!

Anyway the consultation is out and here it is. If you want a say make your voice heard.

www.gov.uk/government/consultations/higher-education-policy-statement-and-reform

Far too many people go to university, end up with worthless degrees and thousands of pounds of student debt.

Much of this debt is never paid back and the taxpayer has shelled out huge amounts of money for nothing, which could have been used for better, more targeted training.

The university racket needs ending. Is this the best way to do it? I don't know, but I don't have any particular problem with it. There are much better ways of helping youngsters from disadvantaged backgrounds than useless, pointless degree courses.

I'm pretty gobsmacked that people are getting onto university courses without GCSE maths and English (mature students aside).

It was always one of the basic stepping stones into getting onto a decent course or job. 4 'O' Levels (including Maths and English) to get a job in a bank (or something similar). 2 'A' Levels to get onto a commercial training scheme. It was only really the cream of the crop who went to university back in the day. Everyone else either got a job or did an HND.

It is utterly ridiculous that so many jobs need a degree now that might have only needed 'O' Level or 'A' Levels. I just shrug internally now when I hear someone young has finished their undergraduate course because graduates are ten a penny these days. I'm really not sure what value the extra years of studying are adding as the standard seems to have hit an all time low from what I've seen.

I think this proposal has its merit - if a student is unable to gain GCSE maths or English then that is an indication that they will struggle at degree level. Too many students are admitted to degree courses, there are too many students in my view embarking on degrees who will not be employed in graduate jobs. If there were vocational courses or vocational degrees equipping students with skills rather than setting them on academic courses which is merely 3 more years in a classroom.

In some European countries the term "engineer" is protected like the word "vet", so you can only call yourself such if you have a degree in engineering. It's just not a profession that's respected in the UK sadly, related to the casual way in which being rubbish at Maths, and not caring, is normalised

The lack of recognition is definitely part of the problem. One of my DC working in Europe has letters reflecting his protected qualification in his business registration. I was qualified before he was born and I don't!

So long as people insist that mechanics and technicians are engineers and that its fine to "be rubbish at Maths" this won't change. Mechanics and technicians deliver key skills but are not engineers and engineers are not necessarily any good as mechanics.

I'm not remotely surprised that a mechanic character in a soap was the only engineer many people could name as for decades the area has been treated as second class by Classics and PPE grads in government.