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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To not understand this about pronouns?

219 replies

HaveringWavering · 01/02/2022 22:11

When people state their pronouns they always say she/her, he/him or they/them.
Why the second part? Doesn’t everyone know that “her” goes with “she”, “him” goes with “he” etc?

Are there people who mix and match- she/him, they/her?

OP posts:
IntermittentParps · 02/02/2022 14:59

@VeryQuaintIrene

Still giggling about "mew". Dare I add it to my email signature, I wonder (I do have 5 cats)?
I'd love to do the same, and maybe a cat face picture too Grin
PurgatoryOfPotholes · 02/02/2022 15:58

@babyjellyfish

That was Halsey.

The article that covered the furore ended up alternating she/her and they/them through the entire piece.

Surely there is a risk of readers not understanding whether the article is about a single person or more than one person?

I saw something just recently where somebody had been pulled up for not using "they/them" pronouns for another person and responded to say that in the context (which was medical) it needed to be absolutely clear that there was only one person and not several people, and using "they/them" could have confused things.

I wish I could remember what it was.

You may be recalling this

Hubby had to review an incident report at work today. Person who wrote it used “they/them” throughout the entire report to refer to the man involved in the incident. Hubby changed it to “involved/injured person” throughout because the report was reading as though more than 1 1/

person was involved. Then 2 people paid him a visit. Asked him why he changed the “inclusive” language. So he told them “It’s confusing language. This is a legal document. It reads in the plural. There can be no confusion about how many people are involved in the incident”. 2/

& they walked away with a flea in their ear, back to HR. Guess what colour hair they had. Hubby wasn’t being a nob. The document was incoherent. If needed in a court case it would be thrown out. This is what unnatural & forced change of language is doing to us. #SexNotGender end/

twitter.com/Sal_Robins/status/1485944990539063303?t=aTBO2JxKrIgcOdp2T9IZ_g&s=19

babyjellyfish · 02/02/2022 16:05

@PurgatoryOfPotholes Yes, that's it! Well done.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 02/02/2022 16:22

By the way, talking of emoji pronouns, I came across some people using pawprint 🐾 emojis as pronouns, which were supposed to be pronounced they/them/theirs as appropriate.

When I read through with the attention required, I noticed the writer was using the pawprints for there too. If you can't distinguish between their, there and they're, maybe you're not ready to invent new pronouns and educate us all on their use.

jaggynettles1 · 02/02/2022 16:28

@SunshineArtist

I just use sex based pronouns for people, I don’t pander.
You inspect the genitals of everyone you encounter? Bit weird.
PurgatoryOfPotholes · 02/02/2022 16:31

You inspect the genitals of everyone you encounter? Bit weird.

Unless you're an alien from outer space, no-one needs to do that to tell men and women apart.

Welcome to Earth, btw. Have you tried French cuisine yet?

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 02/02/2022 16:34

P.S. does it puzzle you that before women first got the vote in 1918, there are no records of men being required to prove they had a penis before they went into the ballot box?

How did the men tell who wasn't entitled to vote? Hmm?

babyjellyfish · 02/02/2022 16:36

You inspect the genitals of everyone you encounter? Bit weird.You inspect the genitals of everyone you encounter? Bit weird.

No. Helpfully, humans have evolved to develop a variety of secondary sex characteristics post puberty which make adult men and women look obviously different from each other and prevent us from wasting our time and gametes accidentally trying to mate with members of the same sex.

LampLighter414 · 02/02/2022 17:02

Why does it matter? Read them, accept them and honour them. Just like you wouldn't want someone to refer to you incorrectly.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 02/02/2022 17:03

@LampLighter414

Why does it matter? Read them, accept them and honour them. Just like you wouldn't want someone to refer to you incorrectly.
Honour? I don't go around honouring anyone much!
FuzzyPuffling · 02/02/2022 17:05

Surely the neutral singular is "it", not "they"?

MoreSmoresthansnores · 02/02/2022 17:22

@LampLighter414 I read and accept (begrudgingly) a lot of things. I usually honour them too. It's called being a functioning member of society / responsible employee.
I think those who are campaigning for this kind of thing to be standard and saying its nothing, its a courtesy etc (incidentally I think its dying out anyway so not many) are not that interested in reading wider on the subject and understanding the wider issues. And its a huge tick box for employers who genuinely don't actually care on any real level. No 'side' is a winner.
Rather than shouting down us 'dinosaurs/terfs/Karen's/old bags etc perhaps stop for a second to think why it isn't as harmless as it seems.
And I say that as someone who has spent a lifetime campaigning for inclusion and would never deliberately hurt/offend anyone. It's one of the most Sheep things I have seen in the last 5 years or so (and there's a lot of competition for that)

Theeyeballsinthesky · 02/02/2022 17:25

Ah I see the beee kind brigade have arrived

Pronouns in emails signatures show you agree with an ideology that says a man is a woman because he says he is

No thank you

babyjellyfish · 02/02/2022 17:25

Why does it matter? Read them, accept them and honour them. Just like you wouldn't want someone to refer to you incorrectly.

Because using the pronoun "she" to refer to a male person implies that we believe trans women are women.

And if we all do that, the International Olympic Committee listens and says, "since we all agree that trans women are women, it's fine for Laurel Hubbard to compete as one".

Respecting the pronoun nonsense will be interpreted as giving tacit consent to the word "woman" being rendered meaningless.

Theeyeballsinthesky · 02/02/2022 17:29

Yep it’s starts with people nodding along when Dave in accounts decides they’re a woman and starts using she/her because it’s the nice thing to do and ends with men in womens refuges, on all women shortlists and in woman’s sports because you’ve already accepted that men can be women right?

MoreSmoresthansnores · 02/02/2022 17:36

My employer is all over the pronouns thing and other 'trendy' inclusivity issues.... but pays its predominantly female workforce wages so low that many colleagues have 2 jobs, get UC, can't afford pensions and in some cases have had to access hardship funds. Yet they've managed to send us on multiple training courses about all kinds of things like this. I can't say more in case its outing. But when I was asked to do pronouns on email signatures you can imagine how receptive to that I was! Most of the directors are men. And they all earn over 90k a year, some over £150k.
So yes. We do need to wake up.

Lostinafjord · 02/02/2022 17:51

Found a wonderful list of further neo-pronouns
neopronouns-list.tumblr.com/

WeBuiltThisBuffetOnSausageRoll · 02/02/2022 18:04

This is exactly what I do when talking about people such as Laurel Hubbard, Lia Thomas and Mridul Wadhwa, and I agree, it is unnatural and somewhat exhausting (but preferable to pretending the Emperor has very fine clothes).

In an NHS meeting last week where somebody spoke about how they felt disengaged from meetings where nobody but them were stating their pronouns. They made a point of not using pronouns during the meeting on the grounds that they didn't want to assume people's preferred pronouns so that is almost exactly how they spoke about others in the meeting.

Oh, I completely agree when you're up against the current Zeitgeist and people who introduce 'issues' - but when you have the 99.99% of people who both are and 'identify as' either female or male with the universally-understood associated pronouns, without any drama, it would be pointless.

Person who wrote it used “they/them” throughout the entire report to refer to the man involved in the incident. Hubby changed it to “involved/injured person” throughout because the report was reading as though more than 1 person was involved. Then 2 people paid him a visit. Asked him why he changed the “inclusive” language. So he told them “It’s confusing language. This is a legal document.

Did the man involved identify as anything other than standard male? If there was no knowledge/suggestion that he did, but somebody still insisted on avoiding the use of 'he' to refer to him, surely the whole nature of inclusive language is such that it must also include the 99.99% of people who do identify as she or he - corresponding with their biological sex - and do not wish or accept to have 'they' assigned to them against their will?

How can 'inclusivity' be deliberately designed to exclude almost everybody?!

Natty13 · 02/02/2022 20:02

@Theeyeballsinthesky

Yep it’s starts with people nodding along when Dave in accounts decides they’re a woman and starts using she/her because it’s the nice thing to do and ends with men in womens refuges, on all women shortlists and in woman’s sports because you’ve already accepted that men can be women right?
Yeah, I don't have a problem with this tbh.
abeanbaked · 02/02/2022 20:09

@Natty13 really!?

babyjellyfish · 02/02/2022 20:10

Yeah, I don't have a problem with this tbh.

With biological males in women's single sex spaces and sporting categories? Really?

HeavyHeidi · 02/02/2022 20:20

No gendered pronouns in my native language, just one for everybody. This always baffles English-speakers: 'But how do you know if you're talking about a man or a woman??'

To which the answer is of course that why would you need to know? If it is important to know, you wouldn't rely on someone else's opinion about pronouns. But if I'm discussing colleague's spreadsheet over zoom, it is really not relevant what's between their legs (or how they identify on any given day).

Wouldn't it be funny if everybody started using only they/them? Hey, it's neutral, no gender assumed, so can't be misgendering, right?

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 02/02/2022 20:21

This is why I have a problem with men in women's refuges. It means they no longer meet female needs.

EXTRACT from Karen Ingala Smith, professional in the violence against women sector

It’s not unusual for women who’ve been subjected to men’s violence to develop a trauma response. These sometimes develop after a single incident of violence, particularly with regards to sexual violence, though sometimes it can develop after years or months of living in fear, walking on egg-shells, recognising that tone of voice, that look in the eyes, that sigh, that pause, that silence, that change in his breathing. Some women have lived this, with a succession of perpetrators starting from their dad – who may have been physically, sexually or emotionally violent, abusive and controlling or a mixture of them all – all their lives.

Post-traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD) can develop in response to trauma that may have occurred recently or in the distant past. Those who have experienced sexual trauma, especially whilst young are at greater risk, with victims of multiple forms of childhood abuse and neglect most at risk of lifetime trauma[i]Women victim-survivors of child sexual abuse are at least twice as likely to experience adult sexual victimisation[ii]. 51% of adults who were abused as children experienced domestic abuse in later life and approximately one in six adults who were abused as a child had been subjected to domestic violence and abuse in the previous year[iii].

[...]

After trauma, the brain can be triggered by something that would barely register for someone else, interpreting something that for many people would be unthreatening as a serious threat or danger, for example the presence of a man, particularly where not expected.

PTSD/trauma responses happen in a part of the brain called the amygdala. The amygdala detects a threat or perceived threat and can activate a “fight or flight” response. This releases adrenaline, norepinephrine, and glucose into the body, and if the threat continues, cortisol. A part of the prefrontal cortex (an area in the front of the brain that processes emotions and behavioural reactions) assesses the threat and can either calm or reinforce the fight or flight response. People suffering trauma/PTSD have a hyper reactive amygdala and a less effective calming prefrontal cortex reaction. The brain becomes overwhelmed by the trauma (pre-frontal cortex shutdown) leading to disorientation and confusion as the higher brain functions of reasoning and language are disrupted. Thinking and reasoning can be drowned out by feeling and being. Prolonged stress can lead to permanent change in the prefrontal cortex.

A trauma-informed safe space creates space for action and recovery from violence and abuse and places the woman victim-survivor in control and in the centre. The trauma response described earlier is the antithesis of a space for action and recovery, so a trauma informed approach is based on understanding the physical, social, and emotional impact of trauma caused by experiencing violence and abuse. A trauma-informed service for women understands the importance of creating an environment – physical and relational – that feels safe to victims-survivors in all the ways I’ve just mentioned. For many women this means excluding men from their recovery space, and yes, this includes those who don’t identify as men. Their behaviour, the likelihood that they themselves may be abusive, is not relevant. If it is not women-only, it is not trauma informed for women who have been subjected to men’s violence.

We know that at least 80% of males who hold a gender recognition certificate retain their penis, but anyway, in almost every case, we don’t need to know what’s in their pants to know they are a man. Women experiencing trauma after violence and abuse will, like most of us – almost always instantly read someone who might be the most kind and gentle trans identified male in the world – as male; and they may experience a debilitating trauma response as a result. It’s not their fault, it’s not a choice and it’s not something they can be educated out of. It’s not hate. It’s not bigotry. It’s not transphobia. It is an impact of abuse and they need space, support and sometimes therapy – not increased confrontation with a trauma inducing trigger; not nowhere to go that offers a woman-only space.

www.kareningalasmith.com/2020/07/08/trauma-informed-services-for-women-subjected-to-mens-violence-must-be-single-sex-services/amp/

Chiliandcheese · 02/02/2022 20:28

Yes of course it's easy to not have a problem with it...If you don't need specialist single sex spaces or take part in competitive sports or have children who do, it is pretty easy to agree (like many of the men such as OJ on twitter do or in fact if you are a middle class university student). It doesn't impact you. How very inclusive and considerate.
You're campaigning from a position of privilege. Whatever you think about the cause its certainly not a global one.
Come middle age, you won't be thinking like that.
Except you likely won't have children to fret over as you'll have fucked up your body with experimental surgeries and drugs. And you'll be paying for it too as the NHS will likely be dismantled and those 'for life' cocktail of drugs won't be so cheap. I'm not saying that with spite. It's a genuine concern of mine.

VladmirsPoutine · 02/02/2022 20:59

You didn't need to do the faux concern cum curiosity "To not understand". You could have just said you think it's a nonsense. This is mumsnet - you were never going to get any pushback for feigning ignorance about gender pronouns.