To not understand this about pronouns?

[HaveringWavering]

When people state their pronouns they always say she/her, he/him or they/them.
Why the second part? Doesn’t everyone know that “her” goes with “she”, “him” goes with “he” etc?

Are there people who mix and match- she/him, they/her?

Why is there money fir Stone Wall training but not to ensure staff have a clean sanitary area to eat to eat lunch

So much this.

Singular 'they' as you would use for anyone if you didn't know their sex.

He/they or she/they are from those non-binary folks who don’t mind people using their bio sex pronoun as well as the gender neutral one.
Some non-binary people prob identify more w their bio sex than others who would have a sh*t fit if you called them ‘she’ or used their ‘dead name’.
I have a non-binary DC so I’m up with all this stuff!! They are v much ‘they’ but still use their given name and refer to themselves as ‘sister’ to their DBro. I can’t say I majorly ‘get it’ but it’s their life (they are an adult btw - all this has happened since turning 18).

What field do you work in, out of interest?

Healthcare—NHS and associated partner NGOs, voluntary organisations etc.

My understanding of she/they pronouns is that the person is comfortable with either she or they pronouns being used, but has a preference for she, whereas with they/she pronouns, they pronouns are preferred.

Ive seen pronouns a lot put in zoom calls when speaking to people in America

@HerRoyalNotness

Yes, One of the presenters on Queer Eye goes by she/him/they and says they are Non binary. I would just use the persons name tbh in fear of getting it incorrect

This is Jonathan van Ness, yes? I watched the cowboy episode and they talked about pronouns and I thought JVN said 'she/him/they' but imagined I'd misheard, as in the previous breath JVN had said 'I don't identify as a man.' The above is my face and the cowboy's face

PS giving pronouns in email signatures happens quite a lot in my industry (books) now too.

There are some really depressing and bigoted views on this thread

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

I believe they think that none of the default subject/object/possessive combinations (e.g. she/her/hers or he/him/his) fully capture their identities.

Funnily enough, the last person who tried to sell neopronouns to me on MN couldn't use your and you're appropriately.

Ha ha! That’s brilliant

What I don’t understand is that when you are with someone, you use 2nd person pronouns, not third.

Eg let’s say I’m with someone:

Did YOU enjoy YOUR holiday?
Not did she enjoy her holiday. You don’t talk to someone in the 3rd person.

@jytdtysrht

What I don’t understand is that when you are with someone, you use 2nd person pronouns, not third.

Eg let’s say I’m with someone:

Did YOU enjoy YOUR holiday?
Not did she enjoy her holiday. You don’t talk to someone in the 3rd person.

I guess it's meant for e.g. a (Zoom) meeting with a group of people, when you might say 'I largely agree with X but I note she mentioned the budget, and...'

I think Jonathan from Queer Eye on Netflix is: she/he/they
🤷🏻‍♀️

What I don’t understand is that when you are with someone, you use 2nd person pronouns, not third.

What do you do in group meetings or emails?

@MoreSmoresthansnores

I would love to know if this is a thing in European countries (a broad range of countries) ... I'm guessing it absolutely isn't in most of the world (because they have more pressing issues). In Iran they're regularly executing gay men for being gay. Another reason why I have no time for people who get upset if they're accidentally addressed incorrectly. For some reason I look like a Sue. I get called it a lot. I'm not called Sue. It genuinely doesn't bother me. Its hardly done with malice. Get a grip pronoun people.

In French there is no gender neutral "they".

The third person singular pronouns are "il" meaning "he", "elle" meaning "she" and "on" meaning "one" or an informal "we". The third person plural pronouns are "ils" meaning a wholly male or mixed "they", and "elles" meaning a wholly female "they".

For this reason, there have been efforts to introduce a new gender neutral pronoun "iel" (which I assume is pronounced, rather clunkily, "ee-ell", because "il" is already pronounced like "eel").

The Robert Dictionary recently announced its decision to add the pronoun "iel" to the dictionary, which was met with derision by several high profile figures. Jean-Michel Blanquer, the French education minister, said that inclusive language is not the future of the French language. François Jolivet, an MP from Emmanuel Macron's party, criticised it as "wokisme" and said it was anti-French. Brigitte Macron also said that there were only two pronouns: "il" and "elle".

The Robert Dictionary defended its decision to include "iel", saying that the increasing use of the word justified its inclusion and they are not a political organisation.

In reality, I do not think this is likely to have any impact on French grammar. Possessive pronouns are gendered according to the object being possessed, not the person doing the possessing. So, for example, "his table" and "her table" both become "sa table" with a feminine possessive pronoun, because the table is feminine. Similarly, "his boat" and "her boat" both become "son bateau" because the boat is masculine.

The main area where the gender of the person has an impact on French grammar is in the case of verbs. I don't know whether you have ever studied French, but when using certain tenses, verbs need to be conjugated using an auxiliary (or secondary) verb, which is either "avoir" meaning "to have" or "être" meaning "to be". Only a handful of verbs are conjugated using être, although they are fairly common ones, so whilst you would say "j'ai mangé" ("I have eaten"), for certain verbs you would say "je suis allé" or "je suis allée" (which is sort of like, "I am went"). You will notice that there are two options: "je suis allé" with one E for male speakers, and "je suis allée" with two Es for female speakers. The main difference is therefore found in these sorts of verbs, and it's very binary; either you are female and you have an extra E, or you are male and you don't have one. The pronoun "iel" cannot accommodate this, so what will happen in reality is that it will default to the masculine (as with mixed sex groups) and become almost identical to "il".

TL;DR - the new gender neutral pronoun in French will be a complete nothingburger.

I’m afraid I’m old enough to have been brought up with “who’s she? The cat’s mother?” - for those not as antique as me, it means that it’s rude to refer to an absent person by a pronoun instead of their name. So there is that, plus the fact that it only comes up when you’re not there to hear, plus I’m gender critical and have spent years trying to get people not to dismiss my work because of my gender.

And finally as PPs have said how does it actually help someone who is unsure of their gender, and is then pressured to commit by all these men in suits called John (he/him)? I have a colleague who has transitioned but hasn’t changed her LinkedIn profile because that’s a really confronting and public thing to do. She doesn’t need to be pressured to put pronouns on her email.

@EmbarrassingHadrosaurus

What field do you work in, out of interest?

Healthcare—NHS and associated partner NGOs, voluntary organisations etc.

Gawd help us.

I read an email from a very important person in the council the other day, that said he/him on the end.

Thank goodness, I’d just been in a one hour meeting with him and hadn’t had a clue that this clearly male person was a man.

Actually, my nhs trust sent out an email inviting 'anyone with a cervix' to book a smear, ffs. So I can imagine the terms 'chest feeding' and 'birthing person' will follow soon.

@abeanbaked

Actually, my nhs trust sent out an email inviting 'anyone with a cervix' to book a smear, ffs. So I can imagine the terms 'chest feeding' and 'birthing person' will follow soon.

I'd be tempted to email them back asking whether you have a cervix or not.

So there is that, plus the fact that it only comes up when you’re not there to hear

I find it strange that people never refer to people as "he/she" while in a group setting.

"Granddad has been doing the garden, he's become very good at it, haven't you Dad?"

"Turn the music off, Emily is studying in here, she doesn't need the noise"

Surely it does get used at times when the person being referred to is present. I wouldn't say it's always rude.

I think we need to start asking how we find out if we have a cervix or not.

Will the NHS be issuing speclums?
Will they advise who should use them or where to put them in order to check if one is in possession of one ? Or will that be excluding some people who identify as having a cervix?

I'm laughing so much at 'mew/mewself'! It's like a snooty, pretentious cat.

I am so lucky to live in the North. I've never met someone who thinks they can dictate that others use heterodox grammar.

I really want to meet one, I'd have a lot of questions.

@Marmarind

So there is that, plus the fact that it only comes up when you’re not there to hear

I find it strange that people never refer to people as "he/she" while in a group setting.

"Granddad has been doing the garden, he's become very good at it, haven't you Dad?"

"Turn the music off, Emily is studying in here, she doesn't need the noise"

Surely it does get used at times when the person being referred to is present. I wouldn't say it's always rude.

I agree- “Who’s she, the cat’s mother?” is for situations where you don’t say the person’s name the first time you refer to them.

So in a meeting with a number of people- “I want to discuss the budget, but she said we don’t have time as she needs to join another call”, perhaps with a nod towards the person who said that.

Versus “I want to discuss the budget but Emily said we don’t have time as she needs to join another call”

I mean, I think that the whole specifying pronouns thing is a bit silly, but to say that we never use she/he/him/her/his/her while the person is part of the conversation (or written communication) is just wrong.