LGBTQ talk in schools

[JaggedStone]

Named changed for this as could be outing.
We are very open with our children and explain life to them in ways they can understand and to ensure they are respectful of everyone and are always open and honest with us.
A LOT of parents have kicked up a fuss about the fact that teachers have spoken to the children today about LGBTQ but it is government mandated as compulsory so essentially the parents can not opt out of it unless they are planning to home school.
Some of the views seem quite hypocritical and some are saying they shouldn’t have these kind of talks yet.
AIBU to think that they are being unreasonable?

@SarahAndQuack

My DD pre-empted school on this one - we live next door to school and she spent the first few weeks dragging different children over to prove she did really have two mummies, while the older ones learnedly told the little ones men can marry men, too.

I find the contrived concern about 'trans ideology' on this thread a bit daft TBH.

Official Stonewall policy is the males who marry males could also be lesbians, SarahAndQuack, depending on how they both identify, and they want this taught at school. If you value the definition of lesbian you wouldn’t see this concern as being contrived.

I have been on MN for donkeys' years and no one is ever particularly worried about lesbophobia

And I have been on fwr Mumsnet for less than a year and could tell you at least three lesbians who have been directly harmed by gender ideology.

All their other posts do indeed mention a same sex partner across the other boards so I highly doubt they are not genuine.

• it also assumes that all same sex relationships are only about sex therefor somehow unsuitable for children BUT

1. Children need to understand basic facts about sex at a very young age so they cannot easily be coerced, can express medical issues should they arise.
2. Being gay (or straight or lesbian) has more to it that what you do with your genitals. If you can't teach about relationships to children there's something wrong with your own notion of relationships.

Too young to be listening to this bull shit

Official Stonewall policy is the males who marry males could also be lesbians, SarahAndQuack, depending on how they both identify, and they want this taught at school. If you value the definition of lesbian you wouldn’t see this concern as being contrived.

Please don't tell me what I think, thanks. I value and am interested in the definition of lesbian, but I still find it contrived when posters on here pretend their concern is all about the lesbians.

Where are you people when there are threads about actual lesbophobia? Nowhere to be seen. Quite happy with people casually discriminating. I'm sorry, but it's very telling.

it’s not a value judgement or an ideology to tell children such things exist.

Not sure if you're being naive or disingenuous. How and why it's taught to children is inherently ideological and based on nuances of judgement and bias. If options like life-changing surgery are uncritically presented, or presented as solution-based, that's an agenda.

@SarahAndQuack

Official Stonewall policy is the males who marry males could also be lesbians, SarahAndQuack, depending on how they both identify, and they want this taught at school. If you value the definition of lesbian you wouldn’t see this concern as being contrived.

Please don't tell me what I think, thanks. I value and am interested in the definition of lesbian, but I still find it contrived when posters on here pretend their concern is all about the lesbians.

Where are you people when there are threads about actual lesbophobia? Nowhere to be seen. Quite happy with people casually discriminating. I'm sorry, but it's very telling.

Please don't tells us where we are, thanks. We are the ones who speak out about lesbophobia. I don't recall seeing your name ever defending lesbians. Practice what you preach. Your protests are disingenuous.

Where are you people when there are threads about actual lesbophobia? Nowhere to be seen.

Wrong again. They're generally in the naughty corner when something of note happens. I also assume that they are on other areas of the site. Aibu isn't the entirety of Mumsnet.

Please don't tells us where we are, thanks. We are the ones who speak out about lesbophobia. I don't recall seeing your name ever defending lesbians. Practice what you preach. Your protests are disingenuous.

'Defending' lesbians from what, though? If you mean I don't post on the endless trans threads, that's true.

However, I do post on the threads that periodically come up, where actual lesbians talk about actual, lived experiences of being discriminated against. IME, those regularly attract posters who are openly homophobic. I don't see the anti-trans lobby rushing onto those threads to help.

Mostly straight women pretending to be oh-so terribly concerned about lesbians is always going to feel contrived. I have been on MN for donkeys' years and no one is ever particularly worried about lesbophobia (indeed, plenty of posters are quite happy to be casually lesbophobic) ... until the trans issue comes up. Then you get posters falling over themselves to think of the poor ickle lesbians forced to have sex with trans women.

And could it also be that there are many mothers of lesbians who are now encountering the lesbophobia that their daughters are now dealing with. And how gender ideology is impacting their daughters directly on a daily basis?

When you see a group of 15 year old girls telling one another that it is indeed transphobic to not do dick of it is a trans person, you realise there is something very wrong.

So I am quite happy to fight for my child and ‘fall over myself’ to make sure they know they have rights and to make sure their school is not reinforcing that lesbians are phobic to say no to any male or homosexual males phobic to say no to having sex with females.

@WorriedMumsDontSleep

Where are you people when there are threads about actual lesbophobia? Nowhere to be seen.

Wrong again. They're generally in the naughty corner when something of note happens. I also assume that they are on other areas of the site. Aibu isn't the entirety of Mumsnet.

What do you mean by 'something of note'? I'm not having a go, I just genuinely don't follow.

I am not talking about big, dramatic threads where people enjoy having a row. I am talking about ordinary discussions, which is where you see people casually being homophobic. Those don't seem to bother anyone - perhaps it's not 'naughty' and dramatic enough?

However, I do post on the threads that periodically come up, where actual lesbians talk about actual, lived experiences of being discriminated against. IME, those regularly attract posters who are openly homophobic. I don't see the anti-trans lobby rushing onto those threads to help

Any chance of an actual example of a thread like this? It is ridiculous to try to blame specific posters for not posting content as you demand it on topics of your choice. And then to use that as evidence that their opinions and comments are worth less than yours.

However, I do post on the threads that periodically come up, where actual lesbians talk about actual, lived experiences of being discriminated against. IME, those regularly attract posters who are openly homophobic. I don't see the anti-trans lobby rushing onto those threads to help.

Where are they posted though?

And it is clear you have your own prejudices here calling people ‘anti-trans’.

@SarahAndQuack

Official Stonewall policy is the males who marry males could also be lesbians, SarahAndQuack, depending on how they both identify, and they want this taught at school. If you value the definition of lesbian you wouldn’t see this concern as being contrived.

Please don't tell me what I think, thanks. I value and am interested in the definition of lesbian, but I still find it contrived when posters on here pretend their concern is all about the lesbians.

Where are you people when there are threads about actual lesbophobia? Nowhere to be seen. Quite happy with people casually discriminating. I'm sorry, but it's very telling.

I didn’t tell you what to think. I asked if you do. If you want to read where people are about actual lesbophobia, have a look at the copious threads in the sex and gender discussion section about the Cotton Ceiling:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4385007-BBC-article-about-cotton-ceiling

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4386058-BBC-cotton-ceiling-thread-number-2

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3294339-cotton-ceiling-evidence-thread

Nancy Kelley equating lesbians to anti-semitics

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4404670-Womans-Hour-18-11-2021-Nancy-Kelley-CEO-of-Stonewall

And that’s just a starter.

Any chance of an actual example of a thread like this? It is ridiculous to try to blame specific posters for not posting content as you demand it on topics of your choice. And then to use that as evidence that their opinions and comments are worth less than yours.

But I am not demanding anyone post anything. I'm merely making an observation, which is that MN regularly ends up with threads where people express lesbophobic views, and threads where people claim to be desperately concerned about lesbophobia, and it's quite obvious that the concern about lesbophobia only shows up in the context of trans issues.

@Jellycatspyjamas

It depends on content, I have no issue with my kids learning about same sex relationships, a number of our family friends are in sane sex relationships so it’s really not news to them. I’d be much more concerned about what they’re covering in terms of trans ideology.

DS was told he could be any one of 73 different genders and given this: www.courts.ca.gov/documents/BTB25-5I-01.pdf I didn't allow DD to attend, their uncle is an effeminate gay man and the information DS was given was utterly homophobic.

The most recent one was started by a lesbian poster.
About a lesbian festival. Letting in men.

You might not think that's a big deal, but having read her previous posts about how the lesbian bars and businesses that didn't cater for men in her area were drummed out of business. Proper nasty harassment btw, I do think it's a big deal lesbians aren't allowed their own space.

And obviously some lesbians think it's an issue too or they would not post about it.

MN regularly ends up with threads where people express lesbophobic views

Does it? Regularly? You know people don't have to frequent the same topics as you? And that not posting content that you approve of is irrelevant to whether or not their opinions about homophobia directed at lesbians are valid/genuine/whatever?

How are you defining LGBTQ?

If the talks are about nonsense gender identity then they shouldn’t be in schools- there’s also a lot of creepy literature, inaccurate videos and slides etc doing the rounds and verging in to seriously inappropriate territory. Sex Ed in schools is now a major industry and as such has been outsourced to some awful orgs - I wouldn’t want my children being taught there are 100 genders and that everyone has a gender identity - because it’s crap.

If however they’re just teaching that some people are LGB and it’s fine and nothing to be ashamed of, then that’s totally ok.

The important thing that should be taught in schools is consent, that pornography is not normal and is often violent and misogynistic. That’s what I’ll be telling my DS.

Then you get posters falling over themselves to think of the poor ickle lesbians forced to have sex with trans women

It’s probably not something an adult, married lesbian who isn’t on TikTok, social media and/or dating sites is confronted with that much though.

Trans ideology is very much something women who have teenage daughters are aware of, with those with girls who are same sex attraction being hyper aware of. That being said, there still seem to be more kids around who identify as trans, “enby” with sexual preferences of “pan” than just girls who are attracted to girls.

@UltraVividLament

MN regularly ends up with threads where people express lesbophobic views

Does it? Regularly? You know people don't have to frequent the same topics as you? And that not posting content that you approve of is irrelevant to whether or not their opinions about homophobia directed at lesbians are valid/genuine/whatever?

Yes, it does.

I know people don't have to post anything they don't want to. However, if a whole host of posters claim to be desperately concerned about lesbophobia, I would expect, if that concern is genuine, that it would be quite visible on the site as a whole. Instead, it only surfaces in relation to trans issues. It's almost as if the concern about lesbophobia is not quite genuine, isn't it?

Now, I'm off to have fancy brunch with my wife. We will both attempt not to be propositioned by armies of transwomen in the process. Wish us luck.

I still find it contrived when posters on here pretend their concern is all about the lesbians.

And many posters are concerned about their daughters. It actually is not hard to imagine considering this is parenting site.

@shouldistop

I've always wondered how to pronounce Mx

I was completely ignorant and had never heard the term.

It's pronounced 'mixed'

@JaggedStone

They are offended that any conversation about this took place at all. And they as parents should have been informed for consent as they would have pulled their children out. It seems all year groups had a similar talk today. I don’t know the exact content this is what my children have told me.

See, if those parents who are as you say kicking off, are also getting their info from their kids then kicking off they probably need to just have a chat with the teacher to establish what the content was. I believe it's perfectly acceptable to ask for written details of what's been taught and school must provide this on request (I think? Happy to be corrected). Otherwise they could have got the wrong end of the stick and end up looking like hysterical homophobic twunts.

If school are just taking about how families are different m some kids have two mums some have two dads, then that's all gravy. Also to say you love who you love and provided this is happening between consenting adults again it's all good. If they are discussing how some people feel their "gender" doesn't match their birth sex and those people would prefer to express themselves as their preferred gender, again happy days.

If discussions go into humans can change sex, pronouns must be used and and debate or anything which starts to contradict safeguarding then a line needs to be drawn.

God yes and anything which reinforces gender stereotypes must be challenged