To advise friend to ditch baby bottles, pushchair and nappies?

[feelinghappy]

My friend's children who are 4 and 6 drink squash from baby bottles (during the day at home - not at school - and take bottles of squash to bed with them), wear nappies in the car (not at night) and use a Phil and Ted pushchair if we go anywhere. My son was in pullups at night until 8 so I know the battle of accidents when they sleep - it's just seeing them get ready for driving home by lying on the floor to have nappies put on felt strange. Both children have speech problems (6 year old is seeing speech and language specialist) and neither have been to a dentist. I tried to encourage them to walk today but after a few steps they were both too tired and climbed back in the buggy. The nappies and buggy do not affect their health so much as the bottles - I wonder if she'll say to me in the future 'why didn't you say I shouldn't use bottles so long?' Or should I just mind my own business?

I’m amazed at the number of people saying to mind your own business. There is a possibility that these children are being neglected here - certainly drinking cordial our of bottles at their age (or any age tbh) could be considered harmful as it will lead to dental cavities and pain. Is that not something we should be pulling her up on? Yes, these children may have SEN and need nappies and a pushchair, but there is NO Sen that means a child has to drink cordial out of a bottle. That’s certainly one thing she needs to be educated about.

How many cases have there been of parents succeeding in keeping healthy and typically developing 6 year olds in nappies and pushchairs? I can't imagine it would be easy and it sounds like quite the opposite of lazy parenting.

Children are programmed to make progress and develop independence. It's not the case that you have to drive them to do it. They do it naturally when their basic needs are met. As far is I can work out, you'd have to work quite hard to stop them doing it.

Your friend is probably struggling with 2 DCs who have additional needs and feels grateful when she's around you that you don't appear to judge her. I'd try to keep it that way.

there is NO Sen that means a child has to drink cordial out of a bottle

Wrong.

there is NO Sen that means a child has to drink cordial out of a bottle

First of all, SEN = special education needs. It means a child has an identified educational need that requires additional support in order for them to access the same learning opportunities as their peers.

SN = special needs, aka a disability or medical condition (most of which would be considered a disability anyway).

While there is often an overlap between the two, it is entirely possible to have SN and no corresponding SEN just as it is possible to have SEN and no SN. One of my children was on the SEN register at school as they were a very reluctant reader and fell behind in that area so needed additional support in order to help them progress, two terms later they came off the SEN register as they were caught up and no longer had an identified support need.

If you're going to make vastly incorrect statements at least get the terminology right.

I could give you a list of disabilities and conditions which might necessitate a child drinking out of a bottle or where a bottle might be the preferred option for giving fluids.

@Cheeseycheeseycheesecheese hey im a dental nurse, yes stop the bottle. Have a look at bottle carries. I work in a dental hospital and the amount of children we see who need a GA because of bottles is so high it's our biggest wait list. There's just no eduction about how bad bottles are for teeth.

Tbh op it just sounds like lazy parenting and I doubt she'd thank you for anything anything

@Soontobe60

I’m amazed at the number of people saying to mind your own business. There is a possibility that these children are being neglected here - certainly drinking cordial our of bottles at their age (or any age tbh) could be considered harmful as it will lead to dental cavities and pain. Is that not something we should be pulling her up on? Yes, these children may have SEN and need nappies and a pushchair, but there is NO Sen that means a child has to drink cordial out of a bottle. That’s certainly one thing she needs to be educated about.

... let me tell you a little something about my dear friend: autism.

Imagine all your sensory needs as a neurotypical person are dials and they're all set to 5 out of 10, all normal, all in the middle somewhere, maybe one or two out.

Well autism means your sensory needs dials are all over the place. And they're different for each person with autism.

So for some kids, drinking plain water from a cup, even though water is a need, doesn't register cos the sensory need for water from a cup is at 1, but the need to suck to release feel good hormones and sooth, on something sweet and nice and familiar and safe is at 10.

Then imagine the need to walk and be independent is at 2, or 3 because your legs are tired, but not having the comprehensive skills from speech and language to understand when someone tells you if you keep walking your legs will get stronger. So before you can just walk a mile or 2 and turn that dial up a little more to average, you need to get your speech and language skills more fine tuned.

Or imagine gross motor sensory needs being at 10 and running circles around every one while spacial awareness and danger control is at 1, when every one else is at 5 and can't keep up.

Autism can absolutely mean kids need to go in pushchairs, or drink cordial from bottles or wear nappies for extended periods of time.

So you're wrong. And I bet OP doesn't know everything she thinks she does about kids that frankly aren't any of her business.

I’m amazed at the number of people saying to mind your own business. There is a possibility that these children are being neglected here

I would say this is being neglectful.

Being pushed in a pushchair and not being taught how to use the toilet, not seeing a dentist etc is not meeting all of their basic needs.
BUT they are at school and the school will be aware of these things and will report them.
It may be better for OP to be there as a friend to support rather than fall out with her and not be around to keep an eye on them.

Are they fed and washed properly?

Being pushed in a pushchair and not being taught how to use the toilet, not seeing a dentist etc is not meeting all of their basic needs. BUT they are at school and the school will be aware of these things and will report them.

Depends what their needs are and I bet school will be more aware of their individual circumstances, including any concerns around SN, than this so-called friend is.

For both of my disabled DC the first agency involved was SALT, they identified that there was more at play than a simple speech issue and they recommended further assessment.

let me tell you a little something about my dear friend: autism.

They haven’t been diagnosed with any SEND.
That’s not to say they don’t have any but these are apparently NT children which are not acting/not being treated like NT children.

@Soontobe60

I’m amazed at the number of people saying to mind your own business. There is a possibility that these children are being neglected here - certainly drinking cordial our of bottles at their age (or any age tbh) could be considered harmful as it will lead to dental cavities and pain. Is that not something we should be pulling her up on? Yes, these children may have SEN and need nappies and a pushchair, but there is NO Sen that means a child has to drink cordial out of a bottle. That’s certainly one thing she needs to be educated about.

Not true that there are no SEN that mean a child can only drink out of a bottle. I’m a teacher for children with severe learning difficulties and I have taught many children who still used bottles and weren’t able to transition to anything else. One boy with autism would literally only drink one brand of squash out of a specific brand of baby bottle, he absolutely would not drink anything else but this one supermarket brand squash and would not drink out of anything else but this discontinued baby bottle, to the point his family had to hunt them down second hand online because nowhere sold them anymore. Some children with SEN will absolutely refuse to drink from anything else to the point where it becomes more damaging to their health to restrict the bottle than to give it, it’s not always as simple as just getting rid.

I’ve also taught children who have problems with their suck and/ or swallow and so need to drink from a bottle and some children with SEN find it very hard to transition to anything else because the motor skills needed to drink from a sippy cup/ sports bottle or open cup are so different or because the control you have over the flow of liquid is so different they struggle with it. Even with OT input some of the children I’ve worked with have not been able to transition from the bottle and will still be drinking from it in their teens (and likely beyond).

I’m not saying that’s not the case here

Myob. Most DC develop regardless of restrictions, they'll want to walk and run refusing the buggy, these DC don't, there's other issues too.
If they're only wearing nappies in the car then there'll be a reason for it.
Definitely Myob.

there is NO Sen that means a child has to drink cordial out of a bottle.

Sensory processing issues can make it very difficult for children to change drinking vessels. (In our case it was the opposite and I had bottle refusers which was very limiting having a baby/ young toddler that needed me accessible)

You naturally want children to drink and it's very difficult if a child would rather abstain from drinking for very prolonged periods than change what/ how they drink.

There was a thread in recent days where an OP's child suspected to have SNs would drink nothing but juice. Literally nothing to the point of being chronically dehydrated.

We don't know if it's SNs on this thread but it is a plausible possibility with the information we do have.

They haven’t been diagnosed with any SEND.
That’s not to say they don’t have any but these are apparently NT children which are not acting/not being treated like NT children.

Children with additional needs have those needs before they are diagnosed and need adaptive parenting long before there is a name applied to their difficulties. OP does not know the ins and outs of their medical history or current services involved other than SALT and in her in words they are "thriving in lots of ways".

[quote massiveblob]@Changechangychange yep agree. What I'm saying is that what she's observing isn't normal for children with no SEN / SN. If she's sure no SN, then it's a cause for alarm[/quote]
Ah, got you - yep agree this wouldn’t be normal for children meeting normal milestones.

@Soontobe60

I’m amazed at the number of people saying to mind your own business. There is a possibility that these children are being neglected here - certainly drinking cordial our of bottles at their age (or any age tbh) could be considered harmful as it will lead to dental cavities and pain. Is that not something we should be pulling her up on? Yes, these children may have SEN and need nappies and a pushchair, but there is NO Sen that means a child has to drink cordial out of a bottle. That’s certainly one thing she needs to be educated about.

There are many children with SEN who will/can only drink out of a bottle. If as a parent you are worried your child isn’t drinking enough you will give them fluid by any means. You sound very ignorant.

@RoyalFamilyFan

But on MN everything is down to SEN and neglect/poor parenting can never be a reason.

Of course neglect can be a reason, but this is OP’s friend, and if she thinks her friend is an otherwise great parent (and she’s seen the kids ask for the buggy themselves), Occam’s razor would suggest that maybe there’s a reason for the baby stuff that OP doesn’t know about?

I don’t see how OP could possibly be sure no SN unless she is an expert in the field. Often in the early years SN aren’t picked up on even by family members, childcare settings or schools until the difficulties become more pronounced as the gap between typically developing peers and the child with SN widens. Sometimes even when SN are suspected it can take time for professionals to arrive on or agree on a diagnosis and there are times a diagnosis can be missed or where it can be retracted and changed for something else later on down the line. I wouldn’t expect that even if there were undiagnosed SN the OP would be able to spot them, it’s possible even the parents aren’t yet aware that their children are hitting milestones at a different pace to their peers if their experience of other children and child development is limited.

I don't think you can assume there are no special needs,it sounds like there may be some development delay.

@Cheeseycheeseycheesecheese

I don't think she'd blame you for not passing comment in the future. Everyone does something others find odd.

I did think bottles were supposed to go by 18 months and be replaced by cups. is this true though? Sorry to derail slightly, ds is 2.5 and still has a bottle of milk at bedtime and a bottle when he wakes up. Cups all day otherwise, should I be stopping this?

Technically yes, bottles should be gone at 12 months. And teeth brushed after night time milk. For oral hygiene and developmental purposes. I don't know many people that abide by it though.

SALT therapist is usually first call, they're obviously delayed.
But on MN everything is down to SEN and neglect/poor parenting can never be a reason.
That is bull shit anyone who has been through the system is aware that neglect and poor parenting are the first thing investigated when the DC is delayed, often parents who are unable to express themselves are sent away with a naughty DC report, until said DC cannot cope any longer and is eventually diagnosed after irreparable damage has been caused to said DC and the family.

@Cheeseycheeseycheesecheese

I don't think she'd blame you for not passing comment in the future. Everyone does something others find odd.

I did think bottles were supposed to go by 18 months and be replaced by cups. is this true though? Sorry to derail slightly, ds is 2.5 and still has a bottle of milk at bedtime and a bottle when he wakes up. Cups all day otherwise, should I be stopping this?

@Cheeseycheeseycheesecheese the advice is actually to stop all bottles at 12 months, so yeah, it would be good to drop those bottles now.

Either replace with cups or just do without - they don't need specific milk drinks by that age anyway.

@Emerald5hamrock I am well aware that is what happens at SALT. But I was talking about MN.

I could not imagine doing any off these things to my dd6 are you sure their are no special need issues children of that age should beable to walk a fair distance and go on a car journey without needing a nappy. Do they have nappies in school? Do they need to rest not play on play ground Inschool?

Definitely not your business - may have additional needs you aren’t aware of. You won’t be thanked for it and she’ll hold it against you.

Do people really think it's easier to keep an older child in nappies rather than toilet training them because a parent is to lazy?
My eleven year old has severe autism and learning disabilities and has only been toilet trained in the last 18 month or so trust me it is neither fun or easy to have an older child in nappies