Dh shouts at 3 year old if she won’t sleep

[Pipesofpeas]

Our Dd is 3, she’s very lively and has always struggled on and off to fall asleep at night. She’s been going through a few weeks of not being able to fall asleep easily and then waking up early, so is overtired.
We’ve been putting her to bed earlier and doing the routine we’ve always done-teeth, story, lights out, cuddling up to her etc.
We alternate bedtimes and Dh just isn’t able to cope with it, she definitely can be hard work but is only 3. I had to come up and take over tonight as he was shouting at her to go to sleep, getting angry and storming around. She was being difficult, running around, not getting into bed etc. I totally get how hard it is, parenting is hard, but shouting and getting angry just makes it so much worse. I’ve just been lay here cuddling to to her whilst she cried and said she can’t sleep and is trying. Just feel so sad for her and wish he’d just step up and be a better parent. He always says he’s tired from work, yes I get it, I’m tired too, we’re all tired ffs

The flaffing around at bedtime for jours is what is causing the issue and looks like the Dad is fed up with it. I don’t blame him, it’s a joke.

*hours

he was shouting at her to go to sleep, getting angry and storming around.

You don't blame him, behaving like that around a toddler at bedtime?

I fucking do.

Like I said he should never shout at a child but having to that ridiculous bedtime that OP has devised while she sits downstairs would set anyone's teeth on edge. 2 hours pandering to a child who won’t even stay in bed and he can’t deviate from the routine even though it doesn’t bloody work? Who wants to deal with that every night after working all day?? Everyone has their limit.

@Newduvet

"he can't deviate from the routine"

Don't think the routine involves shouting and storming about If he's got any solutions I'm sure he's able to try them, but sounds like he'd rather just lose his rag. Hopefully he's at least noticed that that doesn't work.

The routine consists of no rules, no discipline, no firnmess and the child is ruling their lives but OP insists on him doing a 2 hour stint every night to put a child to bed. She will not let him read a story, say goodnight and leave but insist he lies with her, conjoles her, runs around trying to get her into bed. What kind of a life is that shit every night?? OP won’t change routine no as he cannot leave the room
Until she us asleep. Nothing will deter her from
Those rules so he us fighting a losing battle .

[quote OneRuleForThem]@SarahAndQuack
I'm just making the point that the original OP wasn't actually about asking for advice about the child's sleeping patterns, it was about how her DH and she cope differently with the DD. Sleep patterns might well come into it, but there's nothing rude about the OP coming back to say, actually, she doesn't feel that much that it's the issue.

But surely the premise of the OP was “AIBU for thinking DH is wrong for this”? And some people told her no, he’s not, and maybe this would be a better way… and OP hasn’t (so far) seemed to take any of those posts on board. So it’s like…why did you post then?[/quote]
Oh, maybe. I just read it differently and I think if she's getting something out of the thread, then it's not wasted. I know it feels really frustrating when you feel someone isn't taking on board something you're convinced would be the solution - I just get the impression she isn't trying to be a pain to us.

I've got to admit I'm sure I'm biased here, because I remember those times when I was just absolutely shattered and I really struggled with well-meaning people giving me advice about sleep! So that's probably informing how I am reading it all.

Thanks for the feedback, some really kind comments and some not so nice, to be honest it’s been a really difficult time and I feel a bit shit and judged.
It’s only been the last few months that things have become bad with Dd, it worked before. Just to clarify I *Have taken on board so many tips and responded to these, not sure why a couple of posters are saying I haven’t. Not on here to argue or be attacked. I had posted about Dh, he isn’t being forced into my routine at all and it’s previously been ok for us in general.
My post was really about him shouting and really losing his rag. He went up for the bedtime tonight and she was asleep in maybe 45 minutes, not too bad and it’s a chance for them to catch up as by the time he’s back, it’s almost bedtime.
He texted me from work today asking if she was ok and saying how terrible he felt and how he needs to have more patience with her etc.
Also speaking to a friend today who works in Sen and preparing to speak to a specialist as she approaches 4 years old.

It’s an exhausting, hard time, thanks for the kind feedback.

@SarahAndQuack Thank you 🙏 I have got some great feedback and support from this thread, thank you for taking the time

Op I don't understand you now think she has sen , your an early years teacher surely you have experience . This simply sounds like a bad bedtime routine than SEN

@Qwertykeys I’ve wondered about Adhd for some time, but they usually wait until children are a little older to assess them. I’m not keen to put her through that, I’m not sure if it’s over-tiredness or something more. I’ve already discussed it in the post.

From experience lots of parents who suspect ADHD simply don't have boundaries for there children. Many a child enters education with 'red flags ' from parents. Once within the school setting and strict boundaries the child changes and the problem disappears.

I think you need to look closer at your bedtime routine as a lot of posters , myself included, have said you are feeding the behaviour by not letting her learn how to settle on her own.

@Qwertykeys We have boundaries.

@Qwertykeys

Why are you convinced that leaving her on her own to "learn how to settle" is the answer? What other things do children learn best when they're left on their own in a darkened room to work out for themselves?

"This simply sounds like a bad bedtime routine than SEN"

Yes, because you're in possession of all the facts and know the OP's DD much better than she does herself

Can you have a chat with your DP about what he might need to do in his day so he has more patience and energy for the nighttime? It is important that he repairs this rupture with her and you don't just step in and take over. The implicit message in that is he isn't safe or he can't be trusted which erodes a child's sense of safety (yes I know shouting does but a few stressful nights is less damaging in the long term than a father who is implicitly perceived as useless). What does he do as a parent well? If your DD is your only child, perhaps you can take turns in the settling part so one does the routine one night and the other does the cuddles and then swap so it doesn't feel so long. I get it, I have 4 DS and every night is basically a round-robin of putting someone to bed until we fall into bed ourselves - but it will pass. What does she need to fall asleep? Does she have enough 1:1 time or is bedtime the majority of her 1:1 time so she clings to it? Is she active enough in the day? Has she eaten enough protein before bed? Is there enough magnesium in her diet? As for DH it sounds like he is being really triggered by her perceived lack of compliance and the imposition on his evening, what was his experience of bedtimes like as a kid? - he might need a conversation to change his mindset to one of "she is having a hard time" from "she is giving me a hard time" so he can cultivate some compassion and patience. Can you also give him some support identifying where he does get his needs met so that he can be more tolerant at bedtimes with her and less resentful? I feel your pain, but hopefully, he has strengths as a parent too, and I don't think that you taking over bedtimes is the answer. Helping him to be better is.

And whilst I have absolutely no insight into whether or not your DD has additional SEN, what you have described is not outside of what I would consider the boundaries of average - parenting is hard and 3-year-olds can be toads. They have so many mental developmental leaps happening, new connections, ideas, and skills, and little autonomy or other understanding of how to balance it all out. Bedtimes (and mealtimes) are often the crunch point as they are a hard stop with little wriggle room and a clear point for things to bubble over. No-ones prefrontal cortex works well at the end of the day so your regulation ability is diminished and your DD just doesn't have any real control over hers yet so lots of relaxing calming sensory experiences before bed to help regulate her circadian rhythm and produce melatonin.

Bless her she can’t help it if she’s not tired. He’s a wanker for shouting at her

Hi at almost, I had a child with a sleep disorder, was referred to a specialist. I've been in ops in ops position. I'm not saying put her in a dark room , I'm saying try another method.

Not sure it’s a good chance for your husband and daughter to catch up if she’s in bed and can’t sleep! Maybe later bed for couple of days. See if it will adjust with naps or whatever.

I haven't read all the thread OP but I've read quite a lot and can't believe quite how many people are missing the point. You didn't come here to have people critique your routine etc, it is about her husband losing his rag.

For what it's worth OP, we do exactly what you do and our daughter sounds just like yours. She doesn't nap in the day either and is 3.5. No she doesn't have ADHD or anything else, she's curious about the world and loves to chat and can't tell when it's time to wind down. She's delightful. We cosleep and lay with her til she's asleep. We also alternate bed times.

I'm glad to hear your husband is regretful about what happened. I think if he feels himself boiling over again, he needs to leave the room before it escalates and call for you until he calms down. I know this eats into your own time, but better that than him upset her and hopefully it will be few and far between. . It sounds like he knows he has to control it and wants to. He's an adult and can surely control his emotions however the vast majority of the time if he tries.

I do find if I lay there with my eyes closed and say, I'll tell you a story when you are laying still with eyes closed, and don't move no matter what she chooses to do around me, it works as she gets bored, and tbh these days she goes to sleep no problem, but that's my child - you'll figure out what works for you ultimately, maybe some subtle change will help her settle or maybe, like everything, it's just a phase.

But that aside, the crux here is your hay as learning to control his emotions. I'm worried for you and her if he can't do that.

You sound like a wonderful mum, all the best to you!

Meant to add, when I say, tell her a story, I mean from my imagination, not from a a book. I have my eyes closed the whole time and only move to stroke face or hair etc IF she's laying calmly with eyes closed

8.30 - 7 solid sleep is an amazing amount. She may be tired but it seems her body clock just isn't ready and I think expecting sleep at 7 is pretty unrealistic anyway if sleeping til 7. I know you get the odd kid that sleeps 12-13 hours but most dont. Why battle for an hour and a half? it's not helping anyone. Dd2 was similar and once I accepted she was never going to be a child who would be happily snoozing by 7.30 my life became much easier. There was 2 options - put her to bed at 7.30 and have a 2 hour battle resulting in falling asleep at 9.30 or put her to bed at 8.45 and have her asleep by 8.55. Fwiw it's totally normal at 3 for them to be grumpy and over tired in those transition months where they drop the naps and adjust to not having one, also at this time of year everyone is a bit more tired and there are bugs going around which in 3 year olds often presents as them being grumpy and unreasonable. I think she feels under so much pressure to sleep that it's making her not be able to and her body just isn't ready to go. I'd take her up at the normal time then let her come back down and let her play quietly, sit with you, look at books, colour or draw etc. Strictly no running about. Have something dull (to a 3 year old) on tv that you're watching and keep encouraging calm. Take her back up about 8.30 or maybe slightly before. Try this a few night, not just once as someone else also stated. It's going to be so much more relaxing for all of you rather than all the angst.

Also to add id take away any pressure to actually sleep. Bedtime is just that. Bed time. She needs to be calm and quiet and actually be in bed. Be firm. No running around not chatting. I don't mind if you don't go to sleep just lie there and think nice thoughts. Give her ideas of things to think about. If she tries to talk tell her she can tell you all about it in the morning. It's hard and you have to be repetitive. Sshhh tell me in the morning, now is quiet time on repeat

Hi op , as it's been pointed out your post is about your DH shouting at DD . As you said it's been going on for a few months , you and DH are esausted. I think your DH just hit breaking point and lost his temper , if he is normally a good farther then I would forgive him ,I think you posted he's already appolgised. You say you are looking into Sen assessment , should your DD have ADHD you will know the reason for the behaviour. It will then take both of you to work out routine's that work for all of you.

If the child is three, then there has been more than three years of not having evenings and having an evening focused on getting a child to sleep.

Your husband is just fed up and probably wants to have a relaxing evening with his wife without either of you spending hours and hours getting the child to sleep