Dh shouts at 3 year old if she won’t sleep

[Pipesofpeas]

Our Dd is 3, she’s very lively and has always struggled on and off to fall asleep at night. She’s been going through a few weeks of not being able to fall asleep easily and then waking up early, so is overtired.
We’ve been putting her to bed earlier and doing the routine we’ve always done-teeth, story, lights out, cuddling up to her etc.
We alternate bedtimes and Dh just isn’t able to cope with it, she definitely can be hard work but is only 3. I had to come up and take over tonight as he was shouting at her to go to sleep, getting angry and storming around. She was being difficult, running around, not getting into bed etc. I totally get how hard it is, parenting is hard, but shouting and getting angry just makes it so much worse. I’ve just been lay here cuddling to to her whilst she cried and said she can’t sleep and is trying. Just feel so sad for her and wish he’d just step up and be a better parent. He always says he’s tired from work, yes I get it, I’m tired too, we’re all tired ffs

We found an audiobook really helped (we have Toniebox but on holiday I just play a CBeebies podcast on my phone. Lights out, podcast on, leave the room. DS only found out the other week they there is more than one story on each tape, he is usually asleep within about 5 mins. Before we hit on this, he used to be awake and shouting out he needed a drink, was hungry, was scared of monsters etc, every five minutes.

We also put them on in the morning when we want a lie in. Kept DS occupied until 9:30 this morning.

@FlyingPandas I can accept there can be other ways of doing things but not necessarily shutting the door and going downstairs, that’s all 🤷🏻‍♀️
There’s been other advice that I’m going to try.
I was also writing to see if anyone had similar and if there were concerns about anything extra going on

The point regarding the TV is that some children literally can’t handle any. Or, if they can, it’s just a few very particular shows that are not overstimulating. I only mentioned it because you said you wondered if she might have ADHD. It’s just something to consider, as it can have an especially big impact on children who are ND.

Hi @Pipesofpeas, you could be describing my life when my daughter was your daughter’s age. Like you, we co-slept, and cuddled our daughter to sleep, and once I stopped breastfeeding, my husband and I took it in turns to put my daughter to sleep, and he would often end up losing his temper and shouting at her in frustration. I found it really upsetting, as, like you, I felt caught between the rock and a hard place of letting him shout at my daughter and having a couple of hours to myself, or taking over every bedtime and losing my own evening downtime. We started using Sarah Ockwell-Smith’s Gentle Sleep Relaxation for Children every night, and that really helped. It lasts about an hour, and my daughter would fall asleep during it every night. Knowing that she would definitely be asleep within an hour of starting it helped my husband, too - once bedtime became more predictable, he found it easier not to lose his patience. I can’t remember our exact routine but it was something like 6 pm bath, 6.30 bed and stories, 7pm gentle sleep relaxation, and she’d usually be asleep by 7.30/ 8 at the latest. She’s 9 now, and still sleeps less than other children, but she’s happy, healthy, confident, and doing really well at school, and I’m glad we persevered with the gentle technique, even though it was hard. It sounds like you’re doing a great job, and I hope you find a routine that works for you all as well.

@hopingforabrighterfuture2021 Yes, I thought about the gradual moving away in the past, that could work and be a gentler way to begin with 💜I know that she’ll definitely cry for us though, which is hard, perhaps I am too soft, I don’t know

@Pipesofpeas I started with doing my ‘job’ where she could actually see me- so door open and sorting some washing in the corridor or whatever. Gradually moving to the next room but always coming back quite quickly at first. Good luck. It is so hard and I also didn’t want to let my daughter cry at that age as they’re old enough to articulate what’s wrong and it felt wrong to me to let her cry.

@Foldinthecheese She’s definitely influenced by different programmes -Bluey for example 😬 I’ve generally always been conscious of not putting on too much tv and felt guilty if I have, I’ve just followed her on Instagram. I could try a few days with zero tv and see if there’s a change

[quote Pipesofpeas]@hopingforabrighterfuture2021 Yes, I thought about the gradual moving away in the past, that could work and be a gentler way to begin with 💜I know that she’ll definitely cry for us though, which is hard, perhaps I am too soft, I don’t know[/quote]
Could you do something like reading her one story then saying 'right, I'm just going to check daddy is doing ok with the washing up and I'll be back up'? I do that and it often seems to work, because either she's gone to sleep by the time I get back, or, if she is awake, it reassures her I can go away when she's sleepy but I really do come back so she can trust I am not far away. If she sees you come back several times hopefully she will stop crying for you.

@OneRuleForThem

OP it does come across as minimising her behaviour from you.

But it’s not that she’s deliberately being naughty or arsing about but in your OP you said he was shouting at her to go to sleep, getting angry and storming around. She was being difficult, running around, not getting into bed etc if she’s supposed to be in bed but she is in fact not in bed and is instead running around, then that is deliberate.

I agree.

And I’ve noticed it always seems to be the ‘soft’ pandering parents who have the bad sleepers, among my peers.

@Minimananna That sounds exactly the same as us! I breastfed too, co-slept and then we started taking it in turns. I also can’t face it every night, after all day I need space away from everyone 🙈
Is it an app? I will download it

@hopingforabrighterfuture2021

Your husband shouldn’t be shouting at her. However, at 3, she should be in a good routine and going to sleep. Lying with her is just going to make it worse as time goes on.

You need a solid routine.

My oldest was a bloody nightmare for going to bed at her age. This is what I did.

Bath, pyjamas, two stories. Tuck in, say goodnight. Night light on. Then I would say, ‘it’s bedtime now. You need to stay in your bed. I am just going to go and do x job and will be back in one minute to check on you.’

Leave. Stay very close by. Come back in one minute. Then say, ‘I’m going to do and do x job. I’ll be back in a few minutes.’ Repeat until you’re leaving her for longer until she falls asleep. If she gets out of bed, just keep firmly repeating that it’s bedtime. Do not let her out of her room unless she needs the loo or whatever.

That’s one strategy. Other one is she’s allowed to look at books/play quietly but you will not keep sitting with her.

This May sound harsh, but no sleep nearly broke me and a routine was the only way we all coped.

Thing is, though, this doesn't always work. And if it doesn't work, all you have achieved is a miserable child and miserable parents.

IME, people who see routine as the magic bullet usually have children who were not particularly difficult to get to sleep. Obviously, all sleep deprivation is horrible, so if everyone feels as if they would have been unable to cope with it had it gone on any longer/been any more difficult. But if you have a child who will respond to the sort of routine described, you have a relatively easy child. A three year old who will respond to someone 'firmly repeating' that this is bedtime is not comparable to a child who genuinely struggles to get to sleep, especially if they're running around.

OP I hope you and DH manage to find a solution that works for DD and that feels gentle enough for you to be comfortable with it.

Please bear in mind though that if she cries, it is not necessarily distress but an attempt to get you to do what she wants. Always a hard balancing act as a parent trying to work out what is child's genuine need and what is child trying to get their own way, of course, but just something to be aware of, too.

@hopingforabrighterfuture2021 My hope was she’d gradually not want/need us there and we wouldn’t have to go through the crying thing. I also didn’t think at the start we’d still be doing it this way, although I know who do that are happy with it and it suits them best.
Not loving the thought of her thinking why have we stopped lying with her now when we’ve always done it. With breastfeeding for example, I just waited until she didn’t want to anymore, I didn’t offer etc and one day she just stopped asking and that was the end of that, it was just a natural progression.

I'm noticing a pattern.
You first said she was being difficult by running around and refusing to go to bed so your husband lost his temper. People sort of understood how that can happen and made suggestions about bedtime that you disagree with, so you changed it and said she wasnt being badly behaved, she just wants to lie in bed and have more stories and more chat etc and you dont see that as bad behaviour and your husband shouting at her for that is totally different from what you said in your first post.
Now you're saying she doesnt want extra stories and to talk to you; she just wants you there for comfort and support.

You change your story depending on the response you get, which is what people do when they dont really like being told their way might not be the best. They change the story to make their way fit more and more.

Going from the initial version you told, she runs around her room and refuses to get into bed. General mucking around. And once she is in bed, she asks for more and more stories and chats to you and cries because she is so tried but she keeps talking.

She cant talk if there is no one to talk to. But she can focus on something else. Cosmic yoga before bed, story with you or dad, cuddles and kisses, audiobook to focus on and a toy she can fidget with, goodnight and then leave. Dont close the door. Leave the hall light on. Dont tell her to go to sleep. Tell her to have her quiet, relax time until she falls asleep and to enjoy the story she is listening to until then.

You really do need to accept that your way is untenable. At least for your husband. If you wint choose a different method which you can both be consistent with then you need to take over and do the lieing in bed for hours thing.

*Know people

@SarahAndQuack we did that too. Audiobook on, “I’m just going to make a drink, I’ll be back up”. If he’s still awake “I’m going to do some work nextdoor, my door is open so I can listen to the story in my bed too”.

Another thing that really helped was moving to a big boy bed (a mid sleeper). He absolutely loves his bed, all his teddies are in it, it has lovely sheets he chose, it’s his cosy space. He doesn’t fight getting into it any more, he actively hurries to climb in and have a story.

No one should be in the room, she just needs to settle herself

^^ agreed staying in the room just encourages interaction. Needs to learn to fall asleep independently

@Itsalmostanaccessory Ok I don’t think I’m changing my story to fit anything, I’m just trying to explain things. I’m not worried to be told I’m doing something *Wrong but also did come here for some (friendly) advice.

@Itsalmostanaccessory

I'm noticing a pattern. You first said she was being difficult by running around and refusing to go to bed so your husband lost his temper. People sort of understood how that can happen and made suggestions about bedtime that you disagree with, so you changed it and said she wasnt being badly behaved, she just wants to lie in bed and have more stories and more chat etc and you dont see that as bad behaviour and your husband shouting at her for that is totally different from what you said in your first post. Now you're saying she doesnt want extra stories and to talk to you; she just wants you there for comfort and support.

You change your story depending on the response you get, which is what people do when they dont really like being told their way might not be the best. They change the story to make their way fit more and more.

Going from the initial version you told, she runs around her room and refuses to get into bed. General mucking around. And once she is in bed, she asks for more and more stories and chats to you and cries because she is so tried but she keeps talking.

She cant talk if there is no one to talk to. But she can focus on something else. Cosmic yoga before bed, story with you or dad, cuddles and kisses, audiobook to focus on and a toy she can fidget with, goodnight and then leave. Dont close the door. Leave the hall light on. Dont tell her to go to sleep. Tell her to have her quiet, relax time until she falls asleep and to enjoy the story she is listening to until then.

You really do need to accept that your way is untenable. At least for your husband. If you wint choose a different method which you can both be consistent with then you need to take over and do the lieing in bed for hours thing.

That's not what the OP said at all?

People started claiming a three year old running around was bad behaviour, implying she should be punished. The OP just clarified that she didn't see this as deliberate naughtiness.

I think a lot of three year olds find sleep difficult.
On the nights where I know my ds is going to be a pain I actually find lying next to him for half an hour until he drifts off is more relaxing for me then hours and hours of getting up putting him back to bed getting up again ect.

Your DH needs to fix himself. I had a parent who would shout and scream about bedtime/waking up and it instilled a really deep anxiety in me about raised voices while I'm trying to get asleep/waking up. The thought of it makes me ill now. Even if DH is just trying to wake me up in a hurry (for a genuine reason) it will actually almost bring me to tears and really upset my whole day because I can't shake that pit in my stomach. Things like this really stick with a child.

@Pipesofpeas Yep, I could have written your post six years ago! It’s an album - we bought it from itunes, but you can buy it from Amazon, too, and I see it’s also available on Spotify. It took a few days to start working, but after the first week it worked like clockwork - it helped my DD switch off and relax enough to fall asleep. I hope it works for you, too.

@Pipesofpeas it really is! I have a 16 month old as well and even at her age she’s a different sleeper to my 3.5 year old, she has always self settled and I have the same routine with her as I did with him?
He wakes up really jolly, chatting straight away and like your daughter full of excitement and ideas for the day, I do believe it’s because he’s more aware of everything now that he’s getting older.
He needs comfort at bedtime and like you I’m okay with that especially as it hasn’t taken too long to achieve him being happy to drift off to sleep on his own - sometimes I don’t even get to finish his story!
I do totally understand it’s hard when you’re really tired (both dh and I work full time) so if one of us is feeling the strain then the other will do bedtime routine. I found the night light really helped, we have one that you can remove part of it (egg from the penguin) so essentially he has two - one in his drawers and the egg next to his bed that you can leave on a higher light setting when you go and then turn it down once they are asleep.

On not in his drawers 😂

Shouting at a 3 year old to go to sleep is abusive. Tell your Dp that. If he does not respond appropriately you should LTB.