Dh shouts at 3 year old if she won’t sleep

[Pipesofpeas]

Our Dd is 3, she’s very lively and has always struggled on and off to fall asleep at night. She’s been going through a few weeks of not being able to fall asleep easily and then waking up early, so is overtired.
We’ve been putting her to bed earlier and doing the routine we’ve always done-teeth, story, lights out, cuddling up to her etc.
We alternate bedtimes and Dh just isn’t able to cope with it, she definitely can be hard work but is only 3. I had to come up and take over tonight as he was shouting at her to go to sleep, getting angry and storming around. She was being difficult, running around, not getting into bed etc. I totally get how hard it is, parenting is hard, but shouting and getting angry just makes it so much worse. I’ve just been lay here cuddling to to her whilst she cried and said she can’t sleep and is trying. Just feel so sad for her and wish he’d just step up and be a better parent. He always says he’s tired from work, yes I get it, I’m tired too, we’re all tired ffs

[quote Pipesofpeas]@rrhuth She’d be up all night if we didn’t try/help to get her to sleep and she’d be tired the next day and bad behaviour etc, she really needs her sleep and states she’s tired. I do just lie there with her after story and lights out and lie quietly then she starts to say she can’t sleep and gets upset.
Do I then get her out of bed/let her play[/quote]
How do you know she would be up all night? How many days in a row have you tried that?

I think you are contributing to the issue potentially, sorry.

Sometimes they don't sleep, then they work it out, then they have a bad phase, then they have a good phase. The less you stress, the better.

Yes let her read and play quietly, why not? You can't force people to sleep.

Perfect way to get a child off to sleep with a 6ft person shouting, very scary

I think you sound like a great mum. You sound empathetic to your daughter and absolutely doing the right thing by comforting her after she’s been shouted at. I hope DH apologises to her when he calms down?

I am the shouty parent here - I hate it. Mine isn’t bedtime but other triggers. I’m always grateful when DH steps in before I’ve got to breaking point. Now I’ll say to him and my three year old DD that I need a breather and he’ll take over even if it means more tears from DD temporarily it’s better than me shouting at her.

I agree with other PP how about throwing out the rule book of her current routine and trying something different? Do you have other children to do bedtime for?

Your routine isnt working though. Your idea of routine is to sit in her room with her until she stops mucking about and goes to sleep. Your husband obviously isnt on board with that technique. You need a routine you both agree with and stick to. One parent being the soft, cushy one and the other parent being the fed up, grumpy one just doesnt work. And sitting in there for an hour and a half is ridiculous.

I raised my younger siblings. I've raised 2 kids of my own. I had many problem with kids but bedtime was never one. Into bed, story, goodnight and leave. No extra attention for mucking around. No pandering.
It's pretty much the technique which is always recommended. Because it works.

Shouting wil not create a calming atmosphere to go to sleep in. It sounds like he's getting overwhelmed he needs some stress release strategies like counting or breathing.

@rrhuth So just lie with her and leave the lights on

@FTEngineerM

I’d probably do a little experiment, tbh, but I’m a bit of a knob.

Next time he’s tossing and turning in bed just sit up and shout at him ‘go to sleep’, then lie down and turn over without answering any questions he has as to why you did it.

Or if he’s one of those lucky types that drops off instantly every night; wait until he’s getting frustrated at something uncontrollable at work and just shout ‘it’s your fault’ and then leave the room.

He needs to be made acutely aware of how uncontrollable this sleeplessness is for your dd

I have shouted 'go to sleep' at both my other half and my sister who I sometimes holiday with. It drives me mad when people just mess around rather than just lie still and try. Obviously the ops daughter was not trying to sleep because she kept talking. Which is very annoying. I accept that she's only 3 but she does have to learn that bed is for sleeping not for messing around in. Shouting might not be the best way to get that message across but I guess he was beyond rationalising at that moment.

[quote Pipesofpeas]@icedcoffees I’ve tried that, until around 3, she’s 3.5 now, she napped during the day most days and later bedtime. She then stopped napping and won’t now. We always have a quiet downtime after lunch in the place where the nap would be.
Honestly I’ve tried everything[/quote]
Have you tried the naps at different times of day? Late morning before lunch, for example, so she's not sleeping too late in the day?

@Boshmama No other children, how can I do things differently, in what way?

@icedcoffees I could try that, but honestly it got to the point where naps were a nightmare as she just fought them. I feel like I’ve spent half my life trying to get her to sleep, she just always fights it and is then really tired, feels impossible at times.

Dont lie in there with the lights on!

Story. Goodnight. Leave.

If she gets up, you put her back in, goodnight and leave. You dont give loads of attention or hugs and kisses because that encourages her to keep coming and chatting and whatever else she is mucking around with. No extra attention.

Goodnight and leave.

The first night, this might go on for a couple of hours. The next night might be an hour. The third night, she'll start to get the message.

She needs to learnt to go to sleep. This is a really important age for that. As a parent, it is hard to step away but giving her the attention and staying in bed with her so she can chat and sing and everything else is contributing to the problem.

Because shouting at someone and stomping around is a well known way of getting anyone to sleep, especially 3 year olds

Op it is hard, I found 3 was one of the most difficult ages, mine was a none stop talker and has never slept well. Even now as a teenager, although she doesn't wake me now.

Have you thought about putting her to bed earlier? I found my dd went to sleep easier if she wasn't as tired. The old phrase 'over tired' springs to mind. At 3 my dd was going to bed at 6.30, she be awake by 5.30 regardless of how early or late she went to bed. The difference was if she went to bed at 6.30 she then wasn't tired the following day.

I would always follow a routine, tea, bath, teeth, story then lights out. No more interaction, I also did a form of controlled crying, I'd stay calm but no getting into bed etc. it's hard and takes about 3 nights, but after that it was easier

@MerryMarigold

I don't think at 3 she should be running around (it's not going to help her wind down). So:

• If he's shouting at her because she's not getting into bed and doing things to wind herself up, I get it.

• If he's shouting at her because she's lying in bed but can't sleep then obviously not on. Or, if she's been trying 15 mins and then got up.

But please don't 'protect' your DD and then basically encourage bad behavior. Yes dh shouldn't shout and it won't help her calm down, but it's frustrating if she's not listening and I would be very firm with her.

If he's shouting at her because she's running around and not getting into bed and you recognised that she needs to calm down in order to do that, how will shouting at her help her calm down?

Not shouting does not mean condoning 'bad' behaviour.
If you are shouting out of frustration then the problem is not the child.

Its perfectly normal most parents struggle with kids bedtime despite the smug comments you get on here.

Honestly op I know you think she is over tired but rather than a long bedtime why not let her play a bit more and lights out closer to when she is actually falling asleep.

830 til 7 seems healthy to me. Lots of 3 year olds get up at 5 or 6 havingbgone to bed early. My 7 and 9 year old sleep 9 til 730/8

7am is probably on the late side of waking for a 3 year old so I'm sure she is fine.

There is a real idea of early bedtime in English culture and I think it probably links to a lot of bedtime battles. Why not let her just relax with an audio book and dim light until 8 or 830ish then try the light off

cuddling up to her etc.

trying to get her to sleep

Most often, adults just get in the way of kids going to sleep.

There isn’t anything you can do to “get a child to sleep”. If you”re there with her you are keeping her awake.

My daughter was a really good sleeper. But if I was in there with her, she never slept. Stop with the cuddling up to her and let her find her own way in to sleep.

@Itsalmostanaccessory

Dont lie in there with the lights on!

Story. Goodnight. Leave.

If she gets up, you put her back in, goodnight and leave. You dont give loads of attention or hugs and kisses because that encourages her to keep coming and chatting and whatever else she is mucking around with. No extra attention.

Goodnight and leave.

The first night, this might go on for a couple of hours. The next night might be an hour. The third night, she'll start to get the message.

She needs to learnt to go to sleep. This is a really important age for that. As a parent, it is hard to step away but giving her the attention and staying in bed with her so she can chat and sing and everything else is contributing to the problem.

This 1000%- plus maybe move bedtime to 7.30pm (prepare for an earlier wake up)- if no nap- have maybe a 45min-1hr down time after lunch, where you either watch tv together or you look at books (just something quiet and calming).

Also sometimes I used to say “I’m not asking you to sleep but just close your eyes”

OP, I think you need to let your DD learn to self-settle. If she doesn't go to sleep straight away so what? As long as she's quiet and stays in her room then no problem. If she's tired the next day because she's stayed awake longer, then so be it. You're all stressed and pissed off and tired anyway - how much worse would it be?

It sounds to me as if you and DH are so obsessed about her 'going to sleep' that you've made her really anxious about it.

I wouldn't personally blame your DH for losing his rag occasionally. I've had three 3yo DC and let's face it, we all know we shouldn't shout at bedtime, and in reality at times most of us have. We're tired, they're tired, fuses are short.

But it sounds to me as if your tactic of sitting in her room with her is creating longer term problems because you are, unwittingly, making it into a big issue. You're making her feel like she's 'failing' you if she doesn't fall asleep instantly. She may well just be one of those children who takes a while to settle and she needs to learn that that's fine. But she also needs to learn that it's fine for her to be in her room on her own.

Apologies if you've already tried these but you could try a story CD, quiet music, lullaby light, special bedtime toy to keep her company. You give lots of praise for staying quietly in her room. Try and take the parent-driven anxiety out of it all and see what happens. It has to be worth a try.

@Itsalmostanaccessory

Dont lie in there with the lights on!

Story. Goodnight. Leave.

If she gets up, you put her back in, goodnight and leave. You dont give loads of attention or hugs and kisses because that encourages her to keep coming and chatting and whatever else she is mucking around with. No extra attention.

Goodnight and leave.

The first night, this might go on for a couple of hours. The next night might be an hour. The third night, she'll start to get the message.

She needs to learnt to go to sleep. This is a really important age for that. As a parent, it is hard to step away but giving her the attention and staying in bed with her so she can chat and sing and everything else is contributing to the problem.

This all the way.

If you think she really does have an overactive mind and cant shut it off, then an audiobooks for her to focus on. Or gently music.

But you do your story, goodnight, audiobooks on quietly and leave. After that, no extra attention. Ir she comes out, put her back in, say goodnight and leave. Rinse and repeat.

Your husband is wrong in his reaction. Shouting doesnt help anything. We've all done it so we all know it just doesnt help. He was wrong. And that's what you wanted to hear so you'll accept that.

But you're also wrong. Your bed time routine isnt teaching her how to fall asleep on her own or how to settle on her own. And that is what a bedtime routine is meant to be about. You dont want to be told you're wrong, so you're not listening to that advice despite many posters saying it.

It is possible for both you and your husband to be handling this badly. You cant expect him to accept his faults if you refuse to accept your own...

Maybe for a few weeks you do all the bedtimes and DH ensures you get a break other times? It might help her reset and feel safe enough to fall asleep easily again?

Or can you cosleep with her for a little bit? Maybe in your bed so you cuddle her to sleep etc then sneak out?

Could they have some dad/DD dates during the day or at the weekend? My DH will have a coffee break and sit and do a puzzle with DD. Then their bonding time isn’t only at bedtime when both tired and frazzled and may help her settle for him on his nights?

Or your husband speaks to a therapist about his anger? That’s what I’m doing.

What I’ve also done is move bedtime to 6.30pm sometimes even earlier and actually that has helped mine fall asleep quicker as she’s not so overtired and overwhelmed at brushing her teeth etc!

When my DS was born we had a big regression with sleep and the only thing that helped was giving more time and more attention etc - which is hard at the end of the day when you’re knackered etc but did make all the difference

Also totally disagree with all the posters saying you should leave a three year old on a dark room to work through her emotions and fall asleep on her own. You are doing the best thing for your child by comforting her and being there for her.

Does she go to preschool ? That tires them out !

@Boshmama

Also totally disagree with all the posters saying you should leave a three year old on a dark room to work through her emotions and fall asleep on her own. You are doing the best thing for your child by comforting her and being there for her.

No. No she isnt. Just contributing to the problem. Dragging it out. Making it into an event, time together, extra stories, extra attention... extra reasons not to go to sleep.

All those extras should be happening during the day and before bedtime. She should be having praise and love and attention heaped on her. But then bedtime routine and night night and self settling.

@Boshmama

Also totally disagree with all the posters saying you should leave a three year old on a dark room to work through her emotions and fall asleep on her own. You are doing the best thing for your child by comforting her and being there for her.

Actually, no-one is saying that.

This is classic MN emotive rhetoric: "If you attempt to leave a child to self settle, you are failing as a parent! They won't cope!" etc etc.

No-one has said to leave her in a dark room.

No-one has insisted she 'work through her emotions'.

No-one has suggested that the parents withhold all comfort.

Several people, myself included, have suggested gentle tactics like story tapes, nightlights, comforters. Gradually teaching her that actually, you know what, your room is your special space and somewhere where you can snuggle down and fall asleep when you're ready.

You can comfort and be there for your child without lying in their bed every night until they fall asleep. And part of the comforting and being there for them is helping them learn to fall asleep on their own.