Is it cultural appropriation to celebrate Christmas if you're not a Christian?

[Katbut]

OK slightly goady title as I don't think it is cultural appropriation at all but I'm so confused about current political correctness/wokeism about cultural appropriation. It doesn't make any sense to me.

From what I've read in the media recently, it's cultural appropriation to:

Have corn rows etc. if you're white.
Use chorizo in paella.
Let kids play cowboys and Indians.
Represent traditional cultures in theatre (eg removal of Arabian/Chinese dances in the Nutcracker ballet).
Look too tanned in case people think you're trying to look like a different race.

I'm sure there's loads more examples but it's late and my brain isn't working.

If all of these sorts of things are cultural appropriation, why is it OK for atheists to celebrate Christmas? I know the Christians adapted various pagan traditions into Christmas but the idea of "Christ"mas is purely Christian. How is this any different than other forms of cultural appropriation?

(For what it's worth, I personally think the whole cultural appropriation thing is massive overkill - it's often cultural appreciation rather than appropriation).

Just a random Friday night musing...

@Tanith

Oh, I am so sick of this rubbish claim that Christmas is a Pagan festival!! It's posted every bloody year!

No, it is not!

Yule is a separate Pagan festival that is still celebrated today. It's offensive to both Christians and Pagans to claim that Christmas is Yule.
No other religion has to put up with its festivals being denied in this way, yet all religions have their seasonal festivals around the same time and use similar means to celebrate.

Give it a rest! Christmas is Christmas - "Christ's Mass" - a Christian festival that's celebrated in both religious and non-religious ways.
So far as I'm concerned, the more celebration, for whatever reason, the better. I really hate the joyless thought policing that is "culture appropriation".

People aren’t saying Christmas is Pagan, people are saying that the church placed Christmas around the same time as Yule in order to try and stamp it out.

The thinking being that celebrating Christmas would become bigger and drown out Yule.

Same as placing Easter at Ostara. Even the word is similar.

"Cultural appropiation" never come across anything more idiotic. It's nobody else's business how you wear your hair, what you cook in yoir own kitchen etc. Many other religions have a celebration of sorts at Christmas. Muslims, Jews etc. and why on earth shouldn't they? Who are these self appointed busybody telling everyone else what to do?

Oh, I am so sick of this rubbish claim that Christmas is a Pagan festival!! It's posted every bloody year!

I haven't seen people say it's a pagan festival. They say it's roots is in a pagan celebration, which is undeniably true.

I'm guessing that paella has seafood in it not chorizo is be a use it comes from an area next to the sea and even nowadays seafood had to be.very fresh to avoid the risk of poisoning.Also it would have been comparatively cheap and plentiful. Not sure where chorizo originates from but imagine that it has spread over Spain as it is capable of being preserved and sold in other areas without the risk, and while it could have been used in Paella the flavour might have been thought to overpower the seafood and it was probably dearer than seafood. Don't know much about paella like dishes but I can imagine that they might be popular inland. Many people here which is the audience Jo is writing for wouldn't eat seafood either because of the cost or the taste or the worry about poisoning. Just don't call paella with chorizo traditional paella. Pizza is from Italy in its current form although it's roots go way back into antiquity but no one is fussed about all the different incarnations of pizza we have nowadays, it has become a bit like a sandwich, shove on whatever you like. Countries have always imported foodstuffs from elsewhere and used them in a way that blen& in with their own cuisine, which is based on a combination of what is available locally and if their forebears came from elsewhere the cuisine that was brought from the other area underlies it. Often there are different versions of food, customs, dancing etc that are different just because they come from different areas of neighbouring countries, no one is right as such. I joined a facebook group hoping to learn a bit more about African food, only to find eople arguing over what version of a dish was best which was always the one from their country, area or even village, and so many of the ingredients are unobtainable in the area of middle England where I live. Maybe in big cities, London, Birmingham perhaps you can get them but not here. I can however get Asian spices and do sometimes cook with those.
As for eggs and Easter, hens don't often start laying much before Lent, so people. Could use those eggs but then as hens got broody you should let them sit on the eggs so that they would hatch, and have spring to grow up in, when food starts to get more available, green shoots, insects too etc, the eggs hatch after 3 weeks, and hens don't start laying again until their brood is old enough to look after themselves. So sensible to wait until Easter to start eating eggs again, eating them earlier would have put back the new chicks hatching. Just a theory anyway. Back in the day in spring things like butter would be running out, meat likewise, animals would be reproducing so wrong time of year to eat them. Animals who would have had problems getting through the winter would have been killed in the autumn, to save fodder for those who would and who needed it.
Fish on Fridays was originally a Christian requirement but Elizabeth 1 kept it so that the fishing trade was supported
So traditional. Foods are a result of a lot of things, not just culture or religion

That is a good question!

No it's not

@alienbaby

Re putting chorizo in your paella just ask yourself: what would jesus do?

😂😂😂😂😂

I can't be arsed reading the whole thread to see if someone has said it before (because frankly, cultural appropriation is a silly concept more to do with virtue signalling than actual respect for and appreciation of other cultures/recognition of discrimination, etc.) BUT, and this is a big but, Jamie Oliver wasn't criticised for cultural appropriation on the "chorizo in paella" incident, he was called out as a shit cook who mixed really unmixable things that sent shivers down the spine (and taste buds) of many a Spaniard. Cultural appropriation my ass, that's a culinary crime. Besides, paella is actually the pan you cook it in, but ok, it's a popular name for the dish even in Spain (except for its actual region of origin, Valencia and Alicante) so we'll accept that. BUT NOT WITH CHORIZO, GODDAMMIT!

I do mind if people from all backgrounds join to celebrate Christmas. What I dislike is people from other religions coming to Christian countries to try to ban our traditions. Christmas, Halloween, eating certain types or meats, having dogs as pets. I had a few bad experiences with this

I'm not sure they do. I think it's some patronising white people (usually in local authorities) who try to ban things in case they offend "brown" people, even though the latter have never intimated in any way that the use of the word "Christmas" is offensive and indeed put up Christmas trees and give cards at Christmas themselves.

And no, Christmas isn't cultural appropriation. It is the celebration of the Winter Solstice in our house. Sorry for any cultural appropriation of pagan traditions.

@gobbynorthernbird

Are you thick, OP?

Wow just straight up resorting to namecalling. Right side of history, yeah?

Because the celebration of Christmas in the way the western world does it is decidedly NOT Christian.

Also, there are way more Christians of colour from non-European traditions than white ones. The religion is only growing in Africa and Asia - it’s shrinking everywhere else. But that won’t change the celebration of Christmas which is a seperate entitity - because it has nothing to do with Christianity any more

If chorizo in paella is cultural appropriation, then we have a much bigger problem.

There are thousands of restaurants and takeaways in this country that sell food that isn't truly authentic to their countries of origin.

Is pineapple on pizza cultural appropriation? Tikka masala? Sweet and sour chicken/pork balls?

@ZZTopGuitarSolo

To repeat the last line of my earlier post…

Want to learn more? It’s always best to do your own research rather than expect Indigenous friends or acquaintances to educate you.

Your top post is massively offensive Jews. Google the 12 tribes of Israel.

There is literally nothing demeaning about the word "tribe" any more than the word "community" is demeaning.

But do go on telling other cultures what words they are and aren't allowed to use to refer to themselves.

@FluffyBooBoo

If chorizo in paella is cultural appropriation, then we have a much bigger problem.

There are thousands of restaurants and takeaways in this country that sell food that isn't truly authentic to their countries of origin.

Is pineapple on pizza cultural appropriation? Tikka masala? Sweet and sour chicken/pork balls?

To show you how cultural appropriatiation is complex…Indo-Chinese recipes from north India is actually more authentic than modern day Chinese food because the recipes come directly from the Tibetan / Taiwanese / Cantonese diaspora who came over in the 1800s to early 1900s. People think it isn’t authentic because it’s spicy but all food across modern day China used to be spicy before Communism caused food shortages and changed the way people eat. Similarly San Franciscan Chinese food also still produces more authentic dishes from Northern China than China itself.

So in a way modern day China is the one that stole and appropriated the culture of several nations that used to stand in the territories they stole and ruined it.

Similarly if you want authentic Indian food, the kind people would have eaten before successive British and Middle Eastern invasions then Indonesia is the place to go.

All this talk of Pagan traditions has reminded me it’s the start of Saturnalia today so eat drink and be very merry!

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturnalia

Cultures appropriate things from each other all the time. The problem tends to be when it’s a culture that has historically colonised or oppressed another culture taking things from that culture that was on the receiving end of that.

It’s not cultural appropriation for atheists in England to celebrate Christmas, because Christians spent a lot of time trying to shove their religion in everyone’s face.

I’m an atheist who celebrates Christmas, and I don’t associate it with Christianity in any way.

You are confusing religion with culture. Christianity is not a culture. Atheists and Christians can be part of the same culture.

I think just enjoying the Xmas Holiday because, well the Western world pretty much shuts-down and increasingly, other parts of the world do too, certainly isn't cultural appropriation.

As others have mentioned, the Xmas period used to be a pagan festival and in general, by December I reckon people worldwide are a bit worn-out every year, certainly in the Northern Hemisphere with the short days and long nights, that a rest really is needed.

Our Western Xmas traditions though really stem from the Victorians - the snow, cards, tree, presents, decorations even, the turkey (or 'big roasted bird') hark back to Dickens times. You might note that very little of those traditions actually makes any reference to a religious festival at all, even in the 1860s! The 'Dickens Christmas' as it perhaps should be known, is increasingly removed from being a religious festival celebrating the birth of Christ, and The Victorians were responsible for a lot of that.

On Xmas Day itself it's quite possible that the only thing differentiating an atheist from a Christian is that the Christian (might) go to Church in the morning, though of course its likely they'll have engaged in charitable and church activities on the run-up.

I reckon though Xmas has only been a religious festival for those who define it as such. The Victorians, devout though most were, managed to turn it into a humanist festival (with the tradition of charitable giving, seen notably in 'A Christmas Carol') and for others, just a general festival celebrating a rest from hard work.

Well, you don’t understand because you don’t understand what cultural appropriation is and why it’s harmful. A bit of Googling will help with that, but I think you’re probably more determined to keep blurting out the word ‘woke’.

But in short it’s where a historically oppressive culture exploits a historically oppressed culture - usually for commercial gain. There’s a lot of commercial exploitation of Christmas but Christians a) aren’t historically oppressed, b) aren’t harmed by that commercial exploitation, and c) don’t ‘own’ Christmas.

@Disabrie22

Because being Christian isn’t necessarily a culture - it’s a faith. Faith is supposed to be for everyone - therefore it can’t be appropriated.

But slebs get slated for cultural appropriation for wearing a bindi.

Clearly it is, but we're not supposed to talk about it, same as other forms of 'cultural appropriation'. They only work one way round apparently, same as many things these days.

I think any google search will show that Christians have had a lot of persecution, and in some countries this is still happening.

@ginghamstarfish

Clearly it is, but we're not supposed to talk about it, same as other forms of 'cultural appropriation'. They only work one way round apparently, same as many things these days.

How is it cultural appropriation to celebrate Christmas in a country when there even a public holiday for it?

How is it cultural appropriation to celebrate Christmas when it was something that has been done within your family for hundreds of years, even though you don't believe in the god that they did?

I'm Christian and I don't have a problem with atheists celebrating Christmas. They aren't going through the religious part of the festival, they're celebrating in a secular way.

What I do find problematic is atheists taking religious vows in church (weddings, christenings etc) when they don't believe a word of what they're saying.

Given the fact you love throwing around the word “woke” I think we can safely assume your goal is to goad.

But to give you the benefit of the doubt, there is a whole lot of information online which you could read to educate yourself about cultural appropriation. Try that instead of AIBU.