Is it cultural appropriation to celebrate Christmas if you're not a Christian?

[Katbut]

OK slightly goady title as I don't think it is cultural appropriation at all but I'm so confused about current political correctness/wokeism about cultural appropriation. It doesn't make any sense to me.

From what I've read in the media recently, it's cultural appropriation to:

Have corn rows etc. if you're white.
Use chorizo in paella.
Let kids play cowboys and Indians.
Represent traditional cultures in theatre (eg removal of Arabian/Chinese dances in the Nutcracker ballet).
Look too tanned in case people think you're trying to look like a different race.

I'm sure there's loads more examples but it's late and my brain isn't working.

If all of these sorts of things are cultural appropriation, why is it OK for atheists to celebrate Christmas? I know the Christians adapted various pagan traditions into Christmas but the idea of "Christ"mas is purely Christian. How is this any different than other forms of cultural appropriation?

(For what it's worth, I personally think the whole cultural appropriation thing is massive overkill - it's often cultural appreciation rather than appropriation).

Just a random Friday night musing...

@constance1

It's really a celebration of the winter solstice that was appropriated by Christians, so are you saying OP that we are appropriating an appropriated festival? How ironic of us all

Yes! So it must be doubly offensive and surely cancelled?

@HeddaGarbled

That is a good question!

I think, people feel it’s cultural appropriation when it’s the dominant culture adopting the characteristics of a minority or historically subjugated culture: playing with the ‘fashion’ without having experienced what it is truly like to be of that culture.

In a predominantly (at least historically) Christian culture, that wouldn’t be the case, and is just conforming to cultural norms.

I would say that the dominant, secular, atheist culture is appropriating the minority, genuinely Christian culture. So very much cultural appropriation in this sense.

You can be from a Christian background (learnt carols, went to sunday school, go to weddings and funerals and christenings, know the general story of jesus) but not be a Christian and european atheists mostly come from that background. That means Christmas belongs to them in the same way they can get married in a church if they like. Its not appropriation because that tradition already belongs to them even if they arent believers.

So by that argument a Christian Christmas is cultural appropriation and should be considered offensive according to current "woke" thinking?

I was probably being kind. Less cultural appropriation, as they didn’t really appropriate, more just kind of replaced all the Pagan festivals with Christian ones but obviously with Christmas some of the Yule traditions like kissing under a mistletoe, wreaths, and the Christmas tree have been kept.

Faith is often a big part of culture, but it isn't the same thing as culture.
In the UK, celebrating Christmas on 25th December is a secular tradition as well as a religious observance, and doing so is part of the general culture of the country (coming from the cultural heritage of the country as nominally Christian).
It is entirely possible (even common) to have a typical UK Christmas without actually participating in anything Christian other than the name of the festival.

If you want a good cultural appropriation festival debate there is the whole question of who "stole" trick or treating from whom, when. :-)

It would be appropriation if say people in china decided to celebrate christmas.

I always wondered how people from buddhist cultures see the western taste for "buddhism" and its transformation into basically a self help lifestyle tool. I think that woukd piss me off.

I still can't get over the fact that Americans' biggest festival (it's bigger than Christmas) is to celebrate the day their forefathers came and slaughtered a bunch of Native Americans and stole their land.

Thanksgiving should have been the first festival to go under the new wokeism rules but apparently they still love it.

Christianity is the state religion, I'd say that's quite dominant.

@alienbaby

You can be from a Christian background (learnt carols, went to sunday school, go to weddings and funerals and christenings, know the general story of jesus) but not be a Christian and european atheists mostly come from that background. That means Christmas belongs to them in the same way they can get married in a church if they like. Its not appropriation because that tradition already belongs to them even if they arent believers.

I think there is an argument that Christian traditions belong to believing Christians, rather than atheists going through the motions. Christian christenings, wedding and funerals all involve declarations of faith. If you're an atheist declaring stuff that you don't actually believe in isn't that inauthentic, offensive and appropriating Christian culture if you don't actually believe in it?

@alienbaby

It would be appropriation if say people in china decided to celebrate christmas.

I always wondered how people from buddhist cultures see the western taste for "buddhism" and its transformation into basically a self help lifestyle tool. I think that woukd piss me off.

Loads of ethnically Chinese people are Christian.

I celebrate Christmas as a Christian festival. I go to mass, and for me it’s celebration and a festival of remembrance of Christ’s birth. I mark it once a year in December but the month is pretty immaterial to me as long as I mark/acknowledge it. In the same way I might mark my grandmothers death by her birthday, her death day or mother,s day. As long as I remember and acknowledge her importance to me it’s doesn’t matter when I do it. I don’t feel I have appropriated anything.

Use chorizo in paella

What the actual fuck.

@MissMinutes24

Seriously??! I had no idea! I will research that

@MissMinutes24

I still can't get over the fact that Americans' biggest festival (it's bigger than Christmas) is to celebrate the day their forefathers came and slaughtered a bunch of Native Americans and stole their land.

Thanksgiving should have been the first festival to go under the new wokeism rules but apparently they still love it.

Very good point, I've never thought of that.

It’s not offensive when it’s a privileged group’s rituals that are appropriated/appreciated.

In the same way that racial prejudices are only racist when manifest as discrimination which is embedded into social structures and regulations to the detriment of minorities.
You know this and you’re being facetious, but it’s entertaining x

dominant, secular, atheist culture

Is it, though?

Don’t most Brits claim to be CofE even if they rarely step inside a church?

@kmblark

Christianity is the state religion, I'd say that's quite dominant.

Less than 1% of the UK population go to church.

@Choccorocco

It’s not offensive when it’s a privileged group’s rituals that are appropriated/appreciated.

In the same way that racial prejudices are only racist when manifest as discrimination which is embedded into social structures and regulations to the detriment of minorities.
You know this and you’re being facetious, but it’s entertaining x

Do you think Christians in the UK are a privileged group?

I'm a very committed evangelical Christian (in a very uk left wing way, not American!!).

I'm delighted that anyone celebrates Christmas. For me, I know Jesus wasn't born on 25 December but it's a date to focus on. I'm preaching at our carol service on Sunday morning.

But there's a huge amount of sense in having a midwinter holiday. A Festival of Lights is really important, if it's Christmas, Diwali or Hannuka. Or anything else, Yule etc.I think if I wasn't a Christian I'd be a pagan, I love the circle of the year.

So I do t think it's cultural appropriation at all. Please join in, the more, the merrier!

Also, are you saying that you can't be racist against white people in the UK?

@Katbut

Is it really just going through the motions though? I'm not a Christian but I have listened to a priest in a church at a funeral and felt... something. I've been to a Christmas service on a snowy night and felt something too. Belief doesnt always have to be formalised. You can believe in the christmas spirit without believing in actual christ...but rather in what christ was intended to represent.

@weegiemum

I'm a very committed evangelical Christian (in a very uk left wing way, not American!!).

I'm delighted that anyone celebrates Christmas. For me, I know Jesus wasn't born on 25 December but it's a date to focus on. I'm preaching at our carol service on Sunday morning.

But there's a huge amount of sense in having a midwinter holiday. A Festival of Lights is really important, if it's Christmas, Diwali or Hannuka. Or anything else, Yule etc.I think if I wasn't a Christian I'd be a pagan, I love the circle of the year.

So I do t think it's cultural appropriation at all. Please join in, the more, the merrier!

I wholeheartedly agree. But why is this not cultural appropriation if the other things listed are? Why is it any different?

As a Christian, I don’t think it is - it is also part of our broader secular culture in this country. There’s nothing in the Gospels about elves and Father Christmas!

Oh, and I had to pretend to be a Christian to get my kid into the nearest state school! That’s how privileged Christians still are in some respects in this country. I don’t think that cultural appropriation plays a part when you have to do it to get your kids a decent education! If you don’t celebrate Christmas and Christianity in some places, you are penalised! Don’t get me started!

[quote alienbaby]@Katbut

Is it really just going through the motions though? I'm not a Christian but I have listened to a priest in a church at a funeral and felt... something. I've been to a Christmas service on a snowy night and felt something too. Belief doesnt always have to be formalised. You can believe in the christmas spirit without believing in actual christ...but rather in what christ was intended to represent.[/quote]
Fair enough but would you also say "Amen" to a prayer to a God you don't believe in? Or join in the declaration of faith? Or sing songs of worship to a God you don't believe in? If you're a Godparent, for example, you're required to promise to bring the child up as a Christian. Would you make that promise if you're not a Christian?