Is it cultural appropriation to celebrate Christmas if you're not a Christian?

[Katbut]

OK slightly goady title as I don't think it is cultural appropriation at all but I'm so confused about current political correctness/wokeism about cultural appropriation. It doesn't make any sense to me.

From what I've read in the media recently, it's cultural appropriation to:

Have corn rows etc. if you're white.
Use chorizo in paella.
Let kids play cowboys and Indians.
Represent traditional cultures in theatre (eg removal of Arabian/Chinese dances in the Nutcracker ballet).
Look too tanned in case people think you're trying to look like a different race.

I'm sure there's loads more examples but it's late and my brain isn't working.

If all of these sorts of things are cultural appropriation, why is it OK for atheists to celebrate Christmas? I know the Christians adapted various pagan traditions into Christmas but the idea of "Christ"mas is purely Christian. How is this any different than other forms of cultural appropriation?

(For what it's worth, I personally think the whole cultural appropriation thing is massive overkill - it's often cultural appreciation rather than appropriation).

Just a random Friday night musing...

I'm not supposed to use chorizo anymore??? What the....?

What I dislike is people from other religions coming to Christian countries to try to ban our traditions. Christmas, Halloween, eating certain types or meats, having dogs as pets

Who is doing this?

On the topic of Christians "appropriating" a pagan celebration, I thought I'd share this funny video

I'm not supposed to use chorizo anymore??? What the....?

Nobody's saying you can't use chorizo . Presumably people were just objecting to Jamie Oliver claiming to have made a (Spanish) paella, but with chorizo (not Spanish) in it. Aside from being an idiotic thing to rage about, it doesn't appear to be the cultural appropriation of paella they're complaining about, but the faux pas of making an 'inauthentic' paella. Frankly good luck to them with that - pretty much every regional/national dish under the sun has been adopted, bastardised and generally mucked about with at some point, often by multiple other cultures in umpteen different ways. That's kind of how food and culture work.

What I dislike is people from other religions coming to Christian countries to try to ban our traditions. Christmas, Halloween, eating certain types or meats, having dogs as pets.

Can you give any actual examples of people from other religions doing that? Actually trying to ban those things? (Rather than just having the right to celebrate their own traditions too).

@MolkosTeenageAngst

The majority of atheists who celebrate Christmas do so in a secular way. There is nothing religious about Father Christmas, stockings, Christmas dinner, families coming together, gifts, crackers, Christmas trees etc and a huge number of Christmas songs are completely unreligious (Wham, Band Aid, Mariah Carey, Wizzard etc). All of these aspects of Christmas are part of traditional British culture and not traditional Christian culture, Christmas in The Netherlands or Romania or Germany would be celebrated differently to a typical British Christmas despite them also being typically Christian countries.

Also most atheists in the UK will be culturally Christian if you go back two or three generations and Christmas is a long standing tradition in their family history. I was brought up as a Christian and attended Church every Sunday as a child, I’m now an atheist but that doesn’t mean I need to shun the traditions and cultures within which I was brought up. Most British atheists who celebrate Christmas will have Christian ancestors who celebrated Christmas and if you traced their history it will be part of their culture and tradition, therefore it’s not cultural appropriation because it is part of their culture.

Saying atheists who are from a Christian British background (even if we’re talking several generations ago) are culturally appropriating would be like saying a British person with Indian heritage (Eg: patents, grandparents or great parents born and lived in India) is culturally appropriating by wearing a sari for a special occasion because they usually wear Western clothes day to day. Something can be part of your heritage and be passed down to you from older generations and regardless of your own beliefs these traditions which may be rooted in a religion you don’t believe in can still be part of your culture.

Yes - I like this post.

I'd add that Christmas is one of those events where it seems to be particularly important for many to pass down their traditions.

I was raised mostly in the UK, and I've found myself wanting to pass down my 'UK Christmas' traditions to my kids who have been raised here in the US.

The kids also have their own ideas about Christmas that they've picked up from friends and culture. So we now have candy canes on the tree, but we also have crackers on the table. We go to Cookie Swaps, but we also have a tin of Quality Street.

Some traditions overlap - here we go to a tree-lighting, sing carols, and visit Santa (and btw, my Scottish granny always called him that, so when I say Santa in my head I hear it in a Scottish accent).

If we want to see a Nativity play we have to go to a church to see it. There aren't any in schools. So far, in 15 years, I haven't made it to one, but several friends invite me to their church every year, knowing that I'd like to see one again. They know I'm an atheist but they want to share the experience with me and make me happy.

My MIL would love for all of her children to attend Midnight Mass with her, because she thinks it's a lovely tradition to continue. She knows they are and always will be atheists. They don't usually go with her, but as she gets more infirm they will.

The overlap between Christianity, Christmas, church, traditions and culture is fascinating.

but with chorizo (not Spanish)

Yes it is.

It's just not a traditional ingredient in paella.

@fournonblondes

Who has come from another culture to a Christian country and tried to 'ban' people having dogs as pets?

I'm assuming nobody but thought you might like the chance to explain...

@crazyjinglist

What I dislike is people from other religions coming to Christian countries to try to ban our traditions. Christmas, Halloween, eating certain types or meats, having dogs as pets.

Can you give any actual examples of people from other religions doing that? Actually trying to ban those things? (Rather than just having the right to celebrate their own traditions too).

Apart from countries which were formally Christian then became Muslim through Arab incursions (such as Algeria), I think it is more the case that Christian minorities in certain countries are targeted for Christmas celebrations. E.g. Pakistan, Comoros, Mauritania, Somalia.

[quote WindInTheWillows7612]On the topic of Christians "appropriating" a pagan celebration, I thought I'd share this funny video

[/quote] That's supposed to be funny?

Even the person that made it describes it as 'mediocre'.

@Katbut

I don't think so, no. 🤔

I think so, yes .

@FluffyBooBoo
It's aimed at Christians so understandable if it's not funny for everyone.

It does raise some interesting points though. That the original pagan celebration started on 17th December and ended on 23rd, and the pagan feast which did take place on 25th wasn't celebrated until 274 AD, while references to Jesus' birth were found 100 years before that. Regardless of that, Christianity itself actually precedes the pagan festival which took place on 25th.

There are plenty of Christians not finding it funny either, if you look at the comments.

As I said, even the creator didn't think it was good.

It's also thought that the Persian god Mithras (or Mithra) was born on 25th December. The cult was very popular at one time but died out by about the 3rd century.

but with chorizo (not Spanish)

Yes it is.

It's just not a traditional ingredient in paella.

My mistake. But I still don't understand why putting an inauthentic ingredient in a dish is culturally offensive! If a Spanish cook made toad in the hole and thought it was traditionally supposed to have chicken in it, that would simply make them wrong, not offensive. If they knew it wasn't meant to have chicken in, but wanted to include it anyway, then so what?

If anyone's interested in listening to something on the origins of Christmas that is actually funny as well as very informative, this podcast is a cracker play.acast.com/s/the-rest-is-history-podcast/10.christmas

Chicken in toad and the hole would be an absolute war crime.

toad in the hole*

Reminds me of an old American folk song.

I'll never married a widowed woman
I'll tell you the reason why
She blows her nose on corn bread
And calls it chicken pie

@ToykotoLosAngeles

Cultural appropriation is normally most frowned upon when a dominant culture picks and chooses elements from a minority culture. I'm not sure atheist/Christian qualifies.

This.

Many of the elements of a modern U.K. Christmas (feasting, decorating with greenery, etc.) have pagan origins, dating back to the old Winter Solstice festival, so I don’t see how enjoying Christmas can possibly be cultural appropriation.

A lot of people who aren’t remotely religious enjoy traditional carols too, whether hearing or singing them.

@JackieWeaverHandforthCouncil

I struggle to engage with posters who use terminology such as ‘woke’ and ‘wokery’, ‘snowflakes’, ‘PC gone mad’, ‘cultural Marxism’ etc. It just sets a negative tone from the off as it seems deliberately combative and not being in good faith. It’s not a genuine enquiry or request for debate.

100% this

@Babdoc

I think many of my generation view the whole “cultural appropriation” schtick with a mixture of scorn and bewilderment. We were raised on the idea that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. If a white person thinks corn rows are cool and attractive, why shouldn’t they copy them? There isn’t a copyright or patent on them. And they are not wearing them to mock the original. Similarly with recipes - fusion cuisine has been a concept for years, everyone benefits by learning elements of different cultures’ food and adapting them for local tastes. Even if (shock horror) that means adding chorizo to paella! I’m a Christian, but I don’t think we have a monopoly on celebrating at the time of the winter solstice. It coincides with pagan yule, and Jewish hannukah etc. British atheists tend to still call it Christmas, simply because they grew up in a Christian country. I feel they are missing all the most important bits, and selling out to a spiritually unsatisfying commercialised tinsel tat fest, but each to his own.

In terms of the hairstyle issue, there is a huge load of information out there that is easily found to understand why black people’s hair/hairstyles is so political. It’s a bug part of oppression to them.

As god “imitation is the sincerest form of flatter”, I’ve seen countless times where it isn’t. The minstrel show is one ( although Ive only seen snippets recently). I’ve seen people imitate disabilities, speech impediments, etc. 🤷‍♀️

I have no idea what's going on.
I just want to post to say I hate paella.
That's all.

I recommend you learn about the roots of Christmas from paganism and Saturnalia and how this “culture” (religion isn’t a culture) was forced onto people then come and talk about what’s cultural appropriation. @Katbut