Is it cultural appropriation to celebrate Christmas if you're not a Christian?

[Katbut]

OK slightly goady title as I don't think it is cultural appropriation at all but I'm so confused about current political correctness/wokeism about cultural appropriation. It doesn't make any sense to me.

From what I've read in the media recently, it's cultural appropriation to:

Have corn rows etc. if you're white.
Use chorizo in paella.
Let kids play cowboys and Indians.
Represent traditional cultures in theatre (eg removal of Arabian/Chinese dances in the Nutcracker ballet).
Look too tanned in case people think you're trying to look like a different race.

I'm sure there's loads more examples but it's late and my brain isn't working.

If all of these sorts of things are cultural appropriation, why is it OK for atheists to celebrate Christmas? I know the Christians adapted various pagan traditions into Christmas but the idea of "Christ"mas is purely Christian. How is this any different than other forms of cultural appropriation?

(For what it's worth, I personally think the whole cultural appropriation thing is massive overkill - it's often cultural appreciation rather than appropriation).

Just a random Friday night musing...

I struggle to engage with posters who use terminology such as ‘woke’ and ‘wokery’, ‘snowflakes’, ‘PC gone mad’, ‘cultural Marxism’ etc. It just sets a negative tone from the off as it seems deliberately combative and not being in good faith. It’s not a genuine enquiry or request for debate.

Also cultural appropriation or cancel culture is not really a thing. A few people complaining on Twitter about something represents the most minuscule subset of the population. Some people really need to stop seeing Twitter ‘storms’ as representative of anything or any group of people.

@JackieWeaverHandforthCouncil

I struggle to engage with posters who use terminology such as ‘woke’ and ‘wokery’, ‘snowflakes’, ‘PC gone mad’, ‘cultural Marxism’ etc. It just sets a negative tone from the off as it seems deliberately combative and not being in good faith. It’s not a genuine enquiry or request for debate.

Yeah my initial thought was 'another arsehole'

It's a day off to eat too much and play monopoly. As an atheist, I may be culturally appropriating by not giving too much thought about the Christmas Story and more thought to where I stashed the brandy.

@Jabbawasarollingstone

It's a day off to eat too much and play monopoly. As an atheist, I may be culturally appropriating by not giving too much thought about the Christmas Story and more thought to where I stashed the brandy.

I could not disagree with you more.

Monopoly? When you could be playing Codenames or Settlers of Catan or Munchkin?

This is, without question, the most controversial post on this thread

My daughter had Chorizo in Paella in Barcelona, there are many recipes on the internet for it, she hates seafood why should she miss out, it is still paella it just has Chorizo in it. I was told off by a Spanish person for sharing a recipe for it as it is not Paella according to them. Recipes and food change all the time how is it culturally appropriating to change a recipe so you enjoy the food?

Asda does a chorizo risotto and Iceland used to do a chicken tikka lasagne I don't think anyone's actually outraged about fucking up traditional recipes, I think it was just because Jamie Oliver was supposed to know better than the likes of asda and Iceland.

Uses woke without a hint of irony or self-awareness
Faux innocence about racist things
Makes up a blatantly stupid “example” of cultural appropriation that makes no sense to complain about political correctness gone mad
Asks about being racist to white people on a website notorious for saying you can’t be sexist against men
“Slightly goady”
🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄

To all the posters saying they have eaten "chorizo paella" in Spain, please know that this a marker for a low-quality tourist trap. If you're ever back to Spain and you see this on the menu, get up and leave. Seriously.

Didn’t the Victorians invent “Christmas” (Dickens in particular) and white wedding dresses ( Queen Victoria)

Christians basically forced christianity (with associated celebrations) on vast swathes of the population, its more doctrination than appropriation.

People have been killed for not being christian, or even the right type of christian, over generations. You dont get to force a religion/culture on people then shout appropriation a few generations later because you deem people to be doing it wrong

And if you think playing cowboys and indians is cultural appreciation then I am gobsmacked. Reenacting attempts to decimate an entire culture doesnt exactly smack of appreciation!

But the Christians appropriated it from the Pagans and now the atheists have appropriated it from the Christians, so surely under current woke rules Christmas is hugely offensive and should be cancelled?

🙄 bet you're one of the 'political correctness gone mad' people.

I think many of my generation view the whole “cultural appropriation” schtick with a mixture of scorn and bewilderment.
We were raised on the idea that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.
If a white person thinks corn rows are cool and attractive, why shouldn’t they copy them? There isn’t a copyright or patent on them. And they are not wearing them to mock the original.
Similarly with recipes - fusion cuisine has been a concept for years, everyone benefits by learning elements of different cultures’ food and adapting them for local tastes. Even if (shock horror) that means adding chorizo to paella!
I’m a Christian, but I don’t think we have a monopoly on celebrating at the time of the winter solstice. It coincides with pagan yule, and Jewish hannukah etc.
British atheists tend to still call it Christmas, simply because they grew up in a Christian country.
I feel they are missing all the most important bits, and selling out to a spiritually unsatisfying commercialised tinsel tat fest, but each to his own.

"And if you think playing cowboys and indians is cultural appreciation then I am gobsmacked. Reenacting attempts to decimate an entire culture doesnt exactly smack of appreciation!"

I agree but how is kids dressing up as pirates any more palatable?

I feel they are missing all the most important bits, and selling out to a spiritually unsatisfying commercialised tinsel tat fest, but each to his own

It's entirely possible to have a lovely atheist Christmas with no tinsel tat. I do it every year. It's a time for family. I bet my atheist family spend less at Christmas than your religious one!

If a white person thinks corn rows are cool and attractive, why shouldn’t they copy them?

Have you ever looked into this? Done a Google search maybe? Information about this is out there and easy to find.

[quote alienbaby]@ZZTopGuitarSolo
Some of the terms on that list are ridiculous though and its safe to ignore. Don't use the word "tribe", tribe massively predates colonialism as a concept. I don't see what the problem with spirit animal is either, or pow wow. Both of those now capture a feeling, an energy, rather than directly linking back to a specific culture.[/quote]
www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/powwow

The Miriam-Webster dictionary has this to say.

powwow verb
powwowed; powwowing; powwows
Definition of powwow (Entry 2 of 2)
intransitive verb
: to hold a powwow
NOTE: Use of this term in contexts not relating to Indigenous Americans or their cultures is considered offensive.
Usage of Powwow
Noun
Use of the word powwow to refer generally to a social get-together or to a meeting for discussion is considered to be an offensive appropriation of a term of great cultural importance to Indigenous Americans.

No because Christmas was appropriated from pagans

Your top post is massively offensive Jews. Google the 12 tribes of Israel.

There is literally nothing demeaning about the word "tribe" any more than the word "community" is demeaning.

But do go on telling other cultures what words they are and aren't allowed to use to refer to themselves.

My post was quite clearly about which words should not be used to describe Indigenous Americans, not other groups.

I have no idea what words would be used to describe Jews, and have made no comment on it.

YABU. Haven't rtft yet, and people have probably said this already, but...

Religion and culture are not synonymous. As an atheist celebrating Christmas I am not committing cultural appropriation, because I am culturally Christian. Christmas is a mainstream festival in the UK, so I am legitimately taking part in a festival that is a part of my cultural heritage. Would, for example, a Hindu be indulging in cultural appropriation if they participated in Holi or Diwali without being an actual believer?

Besides, as no doubt many have pointed out, the festival existed as a pagan one before it was adopted by Christians. I think it's pretty standard for cultures to hang onto popular traditions and festivals long after the actual beliefs have begun to wane.

I know I'm being difficult here but I just think it's an interesting philosophical question as it seems that people get outraged about chorizo in paella but not about, as PP pointed out, the fact that Thanksgiving is celebrating native Indians being slaughtered and robbed!

Not the same people probably though. The thing about your interesting philosophical question about Christmas is that it's not nearly as controversial as some people like to make out. Imo very few Christians object to non-Christians celebrating Christmas, and in general people of whatever culture/religion quite like others to take an interest in and join in with their festivals!

The comparison with things like white people wearing cornrows is a very poor one imo. You are comparing appropriation of once derided aspects of physical appearance of one race by a race which has historically horifically oppressed them, ... with on the other hand celebration of an only partly Christian festival by people who have grown up culturally Christian. No comparison whatsoever. How can you appropriate something that's been part of your own culture for countless generations?

Oh and the chorizo thing is just stupid. Put whatever you like into whatever recipe you like. Call it whatever you like.

Hmmmm, interesting thread OP. My parents migrated from an country thousands of miles away for a better life abroad and ended up settling and having children in the UK. We were not brought up Christian but follow an Abrahamic faith and were taught to revere Jesus and respect our Christian neighbours, as essentially, we all believed in the same thing. We didn't 'celebrate' Christmas from a religious POV but did 'celebrate' it culturally- huge family get together/meals, visiting friends and family during the holidays since we were all likely to be off for Christmas, Christmas cards and my parents would it make it a point to look back on the life of Jesus and think about the purpose of God's message through him to his people etc.

Anyway, fast forward to recent years and I now live in a majority Indian/Hindu area and they all celebrate Christmas- Turkey dinners, house decked to the nines, massive and elaborate gifts, Christmas parties, massive Christmas trees in their drives and I do feel a bit 😏 at the irony of it all since the Abrahamic faiths are quite clear where they stand re: idolaters yet it's these very people from the visible minorities where I live who are up there with dressing up Santa and making a bigger deal of Christmas than even the practising Christians in my neighbourhood!!!

Cultural appropriation or appreciation or conformity? I'm not sure. A bit bizarre, yes.

Oh please OP.

Your whole post is ridiculous.

No one with an active brain cell thinks there's any major problem with chorizo in paella.

Christmas was a pagan festival long before it was Christian.

@fournonblondes

I do mind if people from all backgrounds join to celebrate Christmas. What I dislike is people from other religions coming to Christian countries to try to ban our traditions. Christmas, Halloween, eating certain types or meats, having dogs as pets. I had a few bad experiences with this.

The Daily Fail is that way 👉🏼