Private schools worth it?

[Anon2136]

I’m really torn on whether to put my DD in private school. She’s in year 2 and the private’s near us start from year 3. We can afford it, We’re not super rich but both working and in good enough jobs although we will have to cut back on some things but money wise yes it’s doable. Also I will have to keep working I enjoy working but sometimes I wish I could cut my hours and be at home more. I’m really torn on what to do. Im going around in circles I keep convincing myself that her primary is good enough but then something happens then I think private might be worth it. I’m not sure what to compare it with but for example she very rarely has her homework marked by teacher and it’s frustrating as we spend all weekend doing the homework.

Please be kind and obviously give me differing views but no attacking. I actually asked same question couple of years back but got attacked by people being really nasty and done comments were awful that in end I just didn’t read anymore. I’m hoping this time I can get some useful advice. Any cons to private you can think of please tell me.

Thanks in advance for any useful advice I get.

[quote TractorAndHeadphones]@thepeopleversuswork there’s also the more insidious exclusion of kids from good state schools by rich parents buying up houses in catchment areas.
Not related to the OP but as much as the idea that ‘all private schools bad’ is laughable so is the idea that ‘state schools provide an equitable education’.
Not if everyone comes exclusively from surrounding naice MC area…[/quote]
This is also incredibly true.

In the town where I grew up the best school in the town is a comprehensive (its exam results are in the top 20 in the country every year). It consistently outperforms the local independents (which are all also good schools).

Being in catchment for that school pushes house prices up by close to £100k.

And a lot of the parents who send their kids their pat themselves on the back for adhering to their equitable principles and have a go at parents who choose to spend the money on privates. It's nauseating.

I'm not saying they are wrong to take advantage of the high quality free education on offer -- I'd probably do the same. But the double standard here among some parents who have access to good quality state education can stick in the throat sometimes.

I have 4 kids who have been in a mixture of schools due to house moves, different needs etc. So state primary, independent selective primary, state super selective grammar, super selective independent.
It really boils down to the child and the actual school I would say, in every case. You really cannot generalise.
I have observed that the most engaged parents are in the state sector, in the best state schools in the state sector. But they move mountains to get there kids in - house moves/church/years of tutoring…
Sounds like your child is just in a not very good state primary. There could be other state options?
My own personal belief is that engaged parents who have time for their child, speak to them, learn with them, take them to activities etc - can do the job until at least 13 easily.

We did state primary and private secondary, and she is so much happier at her school than her friends who went to state secondary. It's not an expensive school but it felt right for her, and she's doing really well. They've also picked up her ADHD which I got nowhere with at her primary, have her in special sessions and have helped me work to get exam support too, again unlike her neuro divergent friends at state schools who are having to fight for every tiny bit of support.

@englishwitch

We did state primary and private secondary, and she is so much happier at her school than her friends who went to state secondary. It's not an expensive school but it felt right for her, and she's doing really well. They've also picked up her ADHD which I got nowhere with at her primary, have her in special sessions and have helped me work to get exam support too, again unlike her neuro divergent friends at state schools who are having to fight for every tiny bit of support.

The SEN provision is another thing. I remember a pp saying that private schools are a choice, not a sacrifice.

Not if your child has SEN , and you can’t really afford private school but the alternative is having your kid come home crying everyday. Or going around in never ending circles.

Again - a very individual choice.

*sorry not choice I mean individual benefit!
It’s not all about pushing a B to an A and getting into Oxbridge

Ffs of course private schools can be a choice. There are families who choose to send to state school and could afford private but want a holiday and a nicer car. Then there are parents who don’t put the heating on in winter, don’t go on holiday for several years so that they can scrimp and save and send to private. Both families are sacrificing; IMO the first family is sacrificing their children’s education and in the second prioritising it and sacrificing other luxuries.

But everyone of course is going to come on here and post to justify their feelings of either not being able to afford or wanting to sacrifice other things to afford/wanting to justify the fees they are paying. The difference is that only 6% of people are going to private school so you will have a skewed response on here as the majority of people aren’t paying.

Even if the grades are only ONE grade better as a PP said, that grade can be the difference between your top choice uni or not. It’s still a better grade. I’m amazed that people aren’t just accepting that private school is in general (in GENERAL, not always) better. Like private healthcare. That doesn’t mean state school isn’t also good btw.

To extrapolate on what I said earlier re manners, it’s like this:
Parents who struggle to afford private school tend to take it extremely seriously. Their children will be very polite anyway. Parents who don’t give a fuck have the slack picked up by the extremely diligent teachers. Pastoral care is better at private schools

Vs

State school parents who are involved in their children’s educations or are aware perhaps pastoral care not as good will also have children with exceptional manners. Parents who don’t give a fuck won’t; but the school is not picking up the slack.

I think MOJOMOON makes some excellent points.

For many parents, the decision to pay £200k in fees isn’t entirely rational and the ‘worth it’ thing isn’t a measurable thing.

If it’s looked at in purely rational terms, although parents often try to justify it as ‘worth it’ in grade terms, when you break it down to being 1 grade better at A Level, the gain in these terms isn’t much and as mentioned, large numbers of state school students are in all the most competitive degree courses.

And then people want to justify it in other ways so shift away from a grades focus and point instead to ‘holistic’ factors and the ‘journey’ and emphasise smaller classes, extra curricular, non tangible soft skills and cultural capital. They are harder to measure and so difficult to either support or refute as being important. And often these are a defence when the grades thing has been debunked.

In honesty, I think many people choose independent education in a rather non-rational way and for most it’s not wholly about logic anyway. Many don’t really even look at all the local options or gather information to make meaningful comparisons about outcomes. Fears and prejudices about other families, types of school and memories from own childhoods 30 years before all feed-in and drive decisions. It’s partly why every year, many families choose to spend multiple thousands for their kids to go to really poor performing private schools, when there are state schools as good or often better within reach. It’s also why many families for whom fees are a huge stretch make massive sacrifices to send their clever children to a fee paying school, when the outcome might just be 1 grade higher….they fear much worse outcomes. The fees and independent education become a bit of an insurance policy in a world where there are undoubtedly uncertainties in education.

So here I am….and I’m paying fees for all my children. My kids are bright, have interested parents and we have decent incomes but the fees have meant we remained in a standard semi and go camping each year and won’t retire as soon, when otherwise we could have had a much bigger house and retired early. I recognise the choice as not entirely rational. My kids could have had places at a very successful Comp which is one of the highest achievers in the country. Their abilities and support at home meant they would have probably well there. But instead, we chose the independent option which has causes us many sacrifices. Yes, the kids have had more extra curricular opportunities, smaller classes and a lovely ‘journey’. They have made lovely friends and some of those friends families have given them opportunities to travel to holiday homes or do things they might not have otherwise. They are confident and have self belief (although not arrogance in my view) and will go into the world and do well. I don’t believe there is significant ‘old school tie’ benefit for them in the simplistic way people think of it, although the good friends they’ve made at school and Uni may well give them other connections over time, which simply give them a circle of friends who are also successful and a friendship culture of aspiration and success. In terms of grades, they probably will all have just a grade above what they might have had elsewhere, and with their parents already knowing about university etc etc, it’s unlikely their applications will have differed significantly.

So I acknowledge it hasn’t been a rational decision and for that reason, when people ask whether it’s ‘worth it’ and if they should push themselves to make the sacrifices, I alsays says what I said in my earlier post, that for the vast majority of people, it really doesn’t make sense and isn’t worth it becaue the gain is insufficient to cover the astronomical cost. For the few who face no sacrifices from paying fees, then why not….but most people face some sacrifices.
It has not been rational for us …we have paid a lot of money and haven’t had the bigger house or the sooner retirement or the holidays we could have had, whilst our children could still have had a good education. So I admit we chose based on a feeling and not a rationale. We loved the school and we felt it gave more certainty and in the end we were willing to pay hugely for that extra grade, and the admittedly very marginal extras. We didn’t actually value the bigger house or more holidays that highly and valued the gain we felt out kids would get and also the pleasure we as parents would receive….we did it for ourselves as well as the kids. So I admit it wasn’t rational, which I think few people do. Instead most people seem intent on justifying their choice and I understand why that is ..because £200k is a lot of money.

Maybe in years to come when we are still working when we could have been retired, or we have a smaller asset to pass on, or less to give the children for house deposits, we will decide it was an excessively expensive irrational choice, and too ‘costly’ because of the other things we missed out on. We aren’t there yet so I don’t know. But we are satisfied with our choice for now and it’s been good for us so far.

But I absolutely wouldn’t presume to suggest this is the case for all or most. I really believe that it isn’t a good choice for most families unless they are hugely wealthy and that the gain isn’t sufficient to justify the cost.

My daughter had her uni offers from Bristol reduced two grades from a A*AA to AAB and Exeter and Southampton from AAA to AAB. This was purely because of the school she was at- although her address itself would not have given her reduced offers. She went to a different choice who didn't reduce their offer but it does even out any academic advantage of private school and make it less worthwhile.

It's true that parents might have to spend money to be in a certain catchment area for a particular good state school.

But again, entirely based on the financial return, that is much more sensible than private school. That property is likely to rise in value, so while you have to pay out in higher mortgage payments, you get the capital growth on the property. So the outcome is a good education for your child plus whatever the growth in property value has been (and in very popular schools, this is likely to be significant over a decade).

The same money spent on private school fees only gets you the educational outcome.

So on the question if private schools are worth it, then no, they are quite economically irrational. Spending money on a home in a catchment area gets a better return and giving your children a large cash injection in adulthood also likely gets a better return.

But humans are not rational.

@MojoMoon

It's true that parents might have to spend money to be in a certain catchment area for a particular good state school.

But again, entirely based on the financial return, that is much more sensible than private school. That property is likely to rise in value, so while you have to pay out in higher mortgage payments, you get the capital growth on the property. So the outcome is a good education for your child plus whatever the growth in property value has been (and in very popular schools, this is likely to be significant over a decade).

The same money spent on private school fees only gets you the educational outcome.

So on the question if private schools are worth it, then no, they are quite economically irrational. Spending money on a home in a catchment area gets a better return and giving your children a large cash injection in adulthood also likely gets a better return.

But humans are not rational.

The point isn't which is a better outcome. It's about supposed moral superiority in sending kids to a state school, allowing them a 'variety' of life experience.

Sending kids to a state school by moving house is also buying privilege with money. And even worse - it pushes out the deprived kids who would have benefitted from the school . This exacerbates the inequality in education.

The parents who send their kids to private schools are the ones doing everyone a favour because that's less kids for the government to pay for.

Send your kid to private, state, whatever. But unless you sent them to the nearest without any form of planning (buying a house in a good school area for example) , or tutoring, or anything of that sort you're categorically not upholding the principle of equitable education.

Parents who don’t give a fuck won’t; but the school is not picking up the slack.

This isn't correct though. State Schools absolutely do pick up the slack in this respect.

MOJOMOON, yes I agree that this isn’t an entirely rationality based decision….as my own example shows. I’m happy to acknowledge it’s not financially rational at all….but we did it and were happy.

Somehow, things to do with one’s children often become a bit irrational. Parents will fight tooth and nail for something for their kids that doesn’t really make sense, and they will make sacrifices far in excess of the gain. That comes from them. And I’m not saying this to encourage people to do it, or to suggest it’s a sign of greater parental love when a parent does it.
One of the problems with these threads, is the implicit insinuation that comes or is heard, that parents who could send private but don’t choose to make the often huge sacrifices, somehow love their kids less. This is bollocks…but people hear it, when they choose state. And unfortunately, those trying to justify their £200k fees often feel they must say ‘ we did it as it was best for our child’ which naturally implies unspoken criticism of others, as if they are not choosing the best for their child.

All kinds of financial decisions are not entirely rational…and it’s the human condition. We choose careers that won’t pay the most, and we fall in love with houses that don’t make financial sense, and sometimes we regret our choices and often we don’t.

For me, the ‘cost’ in terms of the sacrifices was high. It didn’t make sense for the small gain over the very good state school alternative…but I still chose it. It’s not rational, but I understand it in terms of, the pleasure it gives me and my husband is huge. That is worth a lot to us, even if it’s not measurable in grades or even outcomes for the kids. The sacrifices were big financially, but actually we don’t value money that much, nor bigger houses or fancier holidays. We know we sacrificed a lot… but we were happy with those sacrifices although objectively they were too big.

Everyone quarries the ‘cost’ and the ‘gain’ differently and that’s partly why you get different decisions from people in similar financial circumstances.

I think some posters really don't have as much as an idea of what goes on in a state school as they think they do. You can't judge the entire state system based on the comparison between state and private, that just doesn't make sense. There are no doubt advantages to private schooling but that doesn't mean that state schools are doss houses filled with crappy teachers that don't give a shit. Any state school teacher worth their salt will tell you that they work their arses off to do right by their students despite the government continually making it harder and harder with every passing day.

I agree with @MojoMoon and @WombatChocolate that private education can often be an "irrational" choice on behalf of parents (and I speak as someone who was partially privately educated and who is actively considering privately educating my child against my principles).

I don't, if I'm totally honest, think it is the best return on investment except for a few limited scenarios, for example a child who suffers from severe social anxiety and really struggles with large class sizes or in a scenario where all the local schools are failing.

For the majority of parents who send their kids to private school who by definition are usually prosperous the kinds of benefits it can bring to a child are marginal.

But it plays on parents anxiety about social mobility and about their kids not getting opportunities. So in a large number of cases, as someone said earlier, its basically an "emotional insurance policy" against your own fears of failure as a parent. At some level you can say to yourself "I sank £100k into private education -- I can't be a bad parent".

And it does bring benefits for sure. Yes you usually avoid giant class sizes and giant crowds. Yes you exclude the extreme disruption that is likely to happen at a very bad comprehensive when a large number of kids have emotional disorders or dysfunctional home lives. It's appalling that people have to make that choice but if you can afford not to sacrifice your kids lives to that kind of disruption why wouldn't you pay to avoid it? And yes there's a certain "social capital" and confidence which private school tends to give children.

But overall, I still think most of these things can be achieved quite easily to an equivalent standard within most state schools by ambitious children with diligent and reasonably organised and driven parents.

The thing that really depresses me about the private system is that the kids who could really benefit from it those kids from dysfunctional families who disrupt lessons for the quiet, well brought up and well fed kids are almost never the ones who get to experience it. There's nothing you can do about this really. But I still at some level find it nauseating.

We are doing state for part of primary despite private being well within our means. I may well keep my DC there for the whole of primary. We are lucky though in the sense that the school is in an expensive area with a small catchment and the school raises a fortune via the church and PTA so funding isn’t an object. The academics are fantastic and the extracurricular are worth of a private school. Swimming, drama, music, art, sport etc.
So weighing it up we do not see the need to send the DC private, albeit we definitely will for secondary as will something like 75% of their cohort.
But if we didn’t have such a school down the road, then I’d have been lining up to send her to one of the many private schools where I live.

So really without knowing what your state primary is like (and apologies, I’ve not RTFT) it’s hard to say. If it’s excellent - high achieving, nice kids; supportive engaged parents and active PTA; strong leadership - stick with it. If not private all the way.

Tractor…interesting thoughts.

I do t think I’d go as far as to say the person choosing private instead of the good state option, is going society a big favour, by freeing a place for someone. This is because overall I think the losses to state schools of children and families who are enthusiastic about education is large. Yes, of course, the gov saves the money on education that child, but overall society is losing out by children being creamed off.

I think I do agree that many families do the same as choosing private education, in terms of advantaging their own kids, by various means. I see what you mean in terms of moving into good state school catchments and forcing up prices and forcing lower income families out from school places, or attending Church, or taking 11+ exams or whatever it is.

I think it will always be the case that many parents will look to give their children whatever advantage they can. For some it comes directly via money snd fees and for others it’s more indirect but often related to money too…money buys opportunities.

The time when everyone sends their kids to the local school with no notice even taken of whether it’s a good or less good school, doesn’t really exist. Differences in schools will always exist. Yes, government can boost standards with funding, but the idea of a totally level playing field so it really doesn’t matter which school you go to, is a pipe dream.

We have seen schools in disadvantaged areas with mass funding and seriously committed leaders raising achievement and bringing spectacular success. I’m thinking of the schools in London that send over 40 disadvantaged students to Oxbridge each year. And there are other schools which have achieved amazing things. But often these schools have creamed off those from motivated families…and that in itself leaves the other remaining schools less well-off. Achieving such standards for all schools doesn’t seem possible. I’m sad to say that as it seems defeatist.

One thing that came up earlier on this interesting thread that made me sit up, was the comment about hugely impressive state school outcomes and how many of them lie in the hands of first and 2nd generation immigration families and how few in the hands of white British families. A different work ethic is something people don’t like to talk about too much, but it is clearly evidenced and the consequences of it in outcomes is very visible.

To me, it’s not really an issue of state vs private schooling. Huge numbers of state educated white middle class children and children from all classes of those whose families were recent immigrants do well (with the real top performers often being from the recent immigrant backgrounds) but it’s often the outcomes of white working class boys especially that are worrying and seeing little improvement. It’s a cultural struggle and very hard to move forward.

This isn't correct though. State Schools absolutely do pick up the slack in this respect

This has not been my personal experience in life. I have a lot of friends and have been to uni and worked in offices etc and anecdotally the people who were privately educated are always far more polite. That’s just my personal experience and I’m willing to accept that there will be an element of bias there too but I’m just saying.

My DC went to private school, paid for by GPs, because after we moved to be near the inLaws, with a lovely state primary and secondary, those schools went pear shaped just before my eldest DC was due to start.

Special measures, arson, head went very suddenly, in the primary school, so DC went to private nearby. Other DC followed because they wanted to be in the same school. The secondary then began to have problems, 6 heads in two years if you count the temporary ones, again into special measures. That was 20+yrs ago - both of those schools now are fabulous and I would happily send DC there.

The Private school was perfect for one of the DC, good for another - and not so good for the third. All his local friends were at the state school and he didn't do as well academically - had to retake A levels in a 6th form college.

You just have to make the best decision you can for your child(ren) in your own situation. It might be the wrong one, but that's the perils of being a parent.

My neighbour apparently gets most of her clientele from her network of private school mothers....she's a rather expensive 'facial aesthetics practitioner'. I wouldn't be surprised if she sent her kid to private school just to network. I know that isn't really the point of this discussion, but I thought I'd add it anyway as it's a rather amusing exercise of parental choice.

@Andante57

State schools, to me, are better because they have all the families in who choose state schools

Rrhuth so you’re saying all parents at state schools could have sent their children to private schools but they chose state schools?
Are you sure about that?

No, of course not, but obviously everyone who chose state school is in state school, that is pretty obvious! There are five groups of people:

Those who can afford private and choose private
Those who can afford private and choose state
Those who can not afford private but would choose private
Those who can not afford private but would choose state
Those who don't give a shit!

I sent my children to the school where I thought the best peer group and the best opportunities would be. State school.

The idea that we would all choose private if only we could is nonsense. I chose freely - state school.

[quote lousanne]@notsureconfused 'would have been worth it'.

@Evesgarden 'you're too late', not 'your'.

Grammar is usually irrelevant but I find it amusing on here - you are parents who clearly care about education, yet don't know simple grammar? What if your child asks you for help with their homework?[/quote]
When you start picking grammar to prove a point you really are scrapping the barrel @thepeopleversuswork. I don't understand why people get so nasty when discussing private schools, maybe you should avoid these threads if it stirs negative feelings within you.

I was eating my dinner when I typed that so wasn't that invested tbh meh ..

Now - if your asking about superlative adjectives then you've got me! That shit just goes right over my head!

@Evesgarden

I'm not sure where you think I was nasty? I've admitted I'm considering private for my own child.

I said and I stand by this that I think reasons people choose private (and I include myself in this analysis) are not entirely rational. And that the people who have the most to gain from private are generally the ones who have the least chance of getting into them. That's not nasty!

I'm having a grown up discussion like lots of other people on here so please don't tell me which threads to post on!

Comfortably affording it is being able to afford it and all your normal bills on one parents income

If you can't do it on one income you can't afford it.

Last thing you need is children at private then a redundancy happens and kids have to be removed from the school

If you can't afford it , tutoring is a good option.

DH’s NHS salary wouldn’t cover 3 sets of school fees after tax.

But that’s ok as we have my income and investments.

If everyone avoided private school for fear of redundancy no-one would go.

And having to move to as state school is not the worst thing that could happen. One of my siblings had to move their kids due to Covid’s impact on business and they’re all really happy. It’s a lot more laid back.

To be fair @TatianaBis we didn't send DS until we had 4 years' fees in the bank and were secure in the fact that we could flog the house and move 2 miles south of the school to free up enough capital to pay the rest of his and dd's. Never ever would we have expected wither of them to reverse back for the lack of funds. I had school friends who did. It didn't go well.