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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Original poster

Enthusiastic Consent - I am .. confused.

645 replies

loopyapp · 30/10/2021 11:29

So .. AIBU that the once previously highly held gold standard for consent between partners had to be enthusiastic and complete. Any hesitant or unsure thoughts = a grey area in which the other party should NOT ever step into??

I ask because (I am very new to all this so please be gentle if I've got this wrong) this sudden uprise in trans activists insisting that predominantly gay women (though men too apparently) should willingly sleep with transwomen and transmen regardless of what genitalia they have or where they are in their transition is confusing.

Are trans people really insisting that people have sex with them despite their lack of enthusiastic consent because its their right??

I must have this wrong.. surely.. we were banging the #metoo campaign drum not that long ago .. all up in arms about how both parties need to be fully able and willing to consent to engage in anything that could be considered sexual contact.. its how I've been raising my 4 boys .. its what I completely believe in .. that absolutely everyone is allowed to turn sex down at any point, even during, simply because they wish to without having to give a carefully drafted PC reason????

[Edited by MNHQ to remove poll]

OP posts:
DellaPorter · 30/10/2021 11:31

It's just a load of rubbish scaremongering not grounded in reality, another attempt to turn people against trans women.

Vanishun · 30/10/2021 11:31

It isn't scaremongering.

The bbc did their due diligence for that article.

It's creepy how many people say those lesbians are lying.

burnoutbabe · 30/10/2021 11:32

I scored low marks on my university consent quiz as apparently "oh go then" isn't enough consent (in a 10 year long relationship)

SultansOfMing · 30/10/2021 11:32

Nobody has any right to have sex with anybody.

Everybody has the right to choose who they do and don't have sex with.

Everybody has the right to withdraw consent to sexual activity at any point for any reason.

Unsure why anyone would try and argue different?

Gwenhwyfar · 30/10/2021 11:35

I don't agree with the enthusiastic consent thing. You don't have to be enthusiastic every time. You have to consent and of course that should be informed consent.

"Nobody has any right to have sex with anybody.

Everybody has the right to choose who they do and don't have sex with.

Everybody has the right to withdraw consent to sexual activity at any point for any reason."

Of course.

HoardingSamphireSaurus · 30/10/2021 11:35

@DellaPorter

It's just a load of rubbish scaremongering not grounded in reality, another attempt to turn people against trans women.
Stop!

Just stop!

What you are effectively saying is that the real life experiences of women are of no importance, are lies, are imaginary. Whatever your reasoning you are saying that the voices of women can be ignored.

Why would you say that?

Original poster
loopyapp · 30/10/2021 11:37

@SultansOfMing

Nobody has any right to have sex with anybody.

Everybody has the right to choose who they do and don't have sex with.

Everybody has the right to withdraw consent to sexual activity at any point for any reason.

Unsure why anyone would try and argue different?

This was my understanding too but ..

BBC News - 'We're being pressured into sex by some trans women'
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-57853385

Suggests otherwise.. there seems to be a lot of anger that this is all some weird lesbian conspiracy but the BBC did some pretty full on due diligence.. more than they usually do for a story .. I just don't know what to think

OP posts:
Vanishun · 30/10/2021 11:37

#metoo - except for you lot, you're just a bunch of liars who should burn.

VladmirsPoutine · 30/10/2021 11:38

I agree it's a lot of scare mongering. Nobody is entitled to have sex with anyone.

Viviennemary · 30/10/2021 11:38

Really does anybody care about this convoluted stuff.

Original poster
loopyapp · 30/10/2021 11:39

@Gwenhwyfar

I don't agree with the enthusiastic consent thing. You don't have to be enthusiastic every time. You have to consent and of course that should be informed consent.

"Nobody has any right to have sex with anybody.

Everybody has the right to choose who they do and don't have sex with.

Everybody has the right to withdraw consent to sexual activity at any point for any reason."

Of course.

I have to say if anyone had sex with out of a sense of obligation or because "meh" or they couldn't be bothered one way or another .. I'd be very uncomfortable.

If someone isn't as raring to go as the other it is .. uncomfortable and as the one more into it I can't see how you'd enjoy having sex with someone who's on the fence about it happening

OP posts:
Original poster
loopyapp · 30/10/2021 11:40

@Viviennemary

Really does anybody care about this convoluted stuff.
Does anyone care if an already marginalised group of women are being more so.. about sex.. wow.

Perhaps it's time to get off this ride.

OP posts:
BeyondShrinks · 30/10/2021 11:41

@DellaPorter

It's just a load of rubbish scaremongering not grounded in reality, another attempt to turn people against trans women.
I kind of understand how you can argue it's all lies to those of us who haven't experienced it, but how do you square that circle to those of us who have?

Are we all Russian bots, or were the people who tried to blackmail us into sex just not true Scotsmen?

ABCeasyasdohrayme · 30/10/2021 11:42

Are trans people really insisting that people have sex with them despite their lack of enthusiastic consent because its their right??

No, trans people are not. There are a small percentage of people who are absolutel twats who think they can demand anything, some of those happen to be trans, but don't put them all in the same boat.

Your voting is ridiculous too, absolutely swayed one way because trans people on the whole do not demand sex from anyone.

Lokdok · 30/10/2021 11:42

What a lazy conflation of two unrelated ideas. Grow up.

BeyondShrinks · 30/10/2021 11:44

@Gwenhwyfar

I don't agree with the enthusiastic consent thing. You don't have to be enthusiastic every time. You have to consent and of course that should be informed consent.

"Nobody has any right to have sex with anybody.

Everybody has the right to choose who they do and don't have sex with.

Everybody has the right to withdraw consent to sexual activity at any point for any reason."

Of course.

I think in this case it's important to distinguish between "meh, let's give it a go, I'm sure I'll get going once we start" and "meh, you're not gonna stop fucking whinging about it otherwise so it's quicker and easier to just agree to shut you up"
Vanishun · 30/10/2021 11:44

No one cares about the women who have reported being raped in prison either.

I don't get why transactivists aren't up in arms over these abusive members of their community, shouting loudly "not in our name, this is not okay, and we'll publicly shame and excommunicate anyone who tries this shit". Rather than "liars! You're all liars and meanies!"

BloodinGutters · 30/10/2021 11:45

@DellaPorter

It's just a load of rubbish scaremongering not grounded in reality, another attempt to turn people against trans women.
Stonewall employed a person they knew taught seminars entitled ‘how to break through the cotton ceiling’.

So no it’s not scaremongering, it’s endorsed by the leading lgbt+ organisation in this country.

Nancy Kelly ceo also said that lesbians should examine their ‘societal prejudices’ if they don’t want to have sex with tw, including the 90%+ who retain their penis.

Stonewall have rewritten the legally protect characteristic of same sex orientation as same gender attracted.

So yes this happens. Supported/promoted by stonewall.

And there’s the first person accounts in the article- are you claiming these lesbians are lying? The two tw in the article who say it has happened to lesbian friends of theirs are lying? Miranda Yardley (tw) also always stood by the fact this happens. And there’s links in fwr that have years worth of evidence to show this happens.

It’s not scaremonging. Stop trying to silence rape victims.

ArcheryAnnie · 30/10/2021 11:47

@DellaPorter

It's just a load of rubbish scaremongering not grounded in reality, another attempt to turn people against trans women.
So you don't believe women, then?

Or is it just lesbians you don't believe?

VickyEadieofThigh · 30/10/2021 11:48

@Vanishun

No one cares about the women who have reported being raped in prison either.

I don't get why transactivists aren't up in arms over these abusive members of their community, shouting loudly "not in our name, this is not okay, and we'll publicly shame and excommunicate anyone who tries this shit". Rather than "liars! You're all liars and meanies!"

That's the part I don't get. Instead, the response is to accuse lesbians of being liars AND there's even been doubling down - Nancy Kelley of Stonewall being the worst culprit - of the 'If lesbians refuse even to consider transwomen as partners they're BIGOTS.
Original poster
loopyapp · 30/10/2021 11:48

@ABCeasyasdohrayme

Are trans people really insisting that people have sex with them despite their lack of enthusiastic consent because its their right??

No, trans people are not. There are a small percentage of people who are absolutel twats who think they can demand anything, some of those happen to be trans, but don't put them all in the same boat.

Your voting is ridiculous too, absolutely swayed one way because trans people on the whole do not demand sex from anyone.

It only takes 10 minutes on twitter to prove your statement wrong.

'Choke on my girl dick"
"I'll fuck the prejudice out of all the te*f lesbians"

I refuse to screenshot that ... bile and post here because I didn't include a trigger warning.

Go and have a look.. but brace yourself it's a dark rabbit hole

OP posts:
ArcheryAnnie · 30/10/2021 11:50

@Vanishun

No one cares about the women who have reported being raped in prison either.

I don't get why transactivists aren't up in arms over these abusive members of their community, shouting loudly "not in our name, this is not okay, and we'll publicly shame and excommunicate anyone who tries this shit". Rather than "liars! You're all liars and meanies!"

Yeah, this, exactly.

Why is everyone so keen to shut all these women up? Who benefits by this?

Lalliella · 30/10/2021 11:50

@Viviennemary

Really does anybody care about this convoluted stuff.
I should imagine you care if you’re a lesbian being branded as transphobic if you won’t sleep with a person with a penis who claims to be a woman.
Chocolatewheatos · 30/10/2021 11:50

I am very pro-trans rights and I totally see why they feel the way they do. They want accepting as the gender they are and its shit to be rejected for something you didn't have control of and have changed. But no one is ever entitled to sex under any circumstances.

LaetitiaASD · 30/10/2021 11:52

@DellaPorter

It's just a load of rubbish scaremongering not grounded in reality, another attempt to turn people against trans women.
That is a deliberate lie from someone who hates women