Enthusiastic Consent - I am .. confused.

[loopyapp]

So .. AIBU that the once previously highly held gold standard for consent between partners had to be enthusiastic and complete. Any hesitant or unsure thoughts = a grey area in which the other party should NOT ever step into??

I ask because (I am very new to all this so please be gentle if I've got this wrong) this sudden uprise in trans activists insisting that predominantly gay women (though men too apparently) should willingly sleep with transwomen and transmen regardless of what genitalia they have or where they are in their transition is confusing.

Are trans people really insisting that people have sex with them despite their lack of enthusiastic consent because its their right??

I must have this wrong.. surely.. we were banging the #metoo campaign drum not that long ago .. all up in arms about how both parties need to be fully able and willing to consent to engage in anything that could be considered sexual contact.. its how I've been raising my 4 boys .. its what I completely believe in .. that absolutely everyone is allowed to turn sex down at any point, even during, simply because they wish to without having to give a carefully drafted PC reason????

[Edited by MNHQ to remove poll]

I find the reactions from those trying to discredit this article instead of discussing the issue are simply following the usual tactic of 'all or nothing'.

It is the very nature of intolerance. And hypocrisy too. Because it is those demanding that total acceptance is the only righteous way that refuse to look at this article with any nuance.

And yet... here it is playing out over and over again on this thread.

And those displaying this extreme intolerance cannot accept the message it is giving out to others who may have their own story but will now not speak up.

And the message it is giving to the teenaged lesbians who all now tell each out that they are transphobic for saying they do not want sex with males.

And the message it is giving to the teenaged lesbians who all now tell each out that they are transphobic for saying they do not want sex with males.

Who now believe that sex is not something based on mutual respect and enjoyment: it's something female people must learn to do and if they do not enjoy it then they have not worked hard enough on overcoming their prejudices and it's their fault and they must try harder.

This is insane. This is an absolute perversion of everything our society believes about healthy relationships. It's an appallingly misogynist and damaging thing to be teaching young girls.

@Artichokeleaves

And the message it is giving to the teenaged lesbians who all now tell each out that they are transphobic for saying they do not want sex with males.

Who now believe that sex is not something based on mutual respect and enjoyment: it's something female people must learn to do and if they do not enjoy it then they have not worked hard enough on overcoming their prejudices and it's their fault and they must try harder.

This is insane. This is an absolute perversion of everything our society believes about healthy relationships. It's an appallingly misogynist and damaging thing to be teaching young girls.

It's all on a par with those dreadful articles in Teen Vogue which were advocating anal sex for girls, with the constant riders that if it's painful use more lube.

It's all on a par with those dreadful articles in Teen Vogue which were advocating anal sex for girls, with the constant riders that if it's painful use more lube.

Oh! The Teen Vogue which admits it now pretty much writes for its male adult audience. And hires writers that cater to that audience.... but still maintains the trappings that it is for young teenage girls?

The one that publishes things about genitals and sex but usually neglects to label (or mention) the clitoris. Because it is written for males by males.

That Teen Vogue?

It is interesting that in this discussion on twitter, some TRAs have been complaining that a particular transwoman was questioned and not included.

It turns out the person they are referring to had a twitter interaction with Lily Cade back in 2014 and called her transphobic for not ‘sucking dick’.

twitter.com/jammersminde/status/1456602151548030976?s=21

Maybe the BBC should have included those receipts for that conversation as well as published what McKinnon/Ivy (was McKinnon at time I believe) tweeted.

Because obviously people will not believe it is happening when it is happening under their noses.

@logsonlogsoff

‘ It's just a load of rubbish scaremongering not grounded in reality, another attempt to turn people against trans women.’

This.
I’m getting a bit sick of GC feminists ( mostly straight) telling me that trans women are trying to force me to have sex with them when they absolutely are not.
And as for the BBC with its article quoting very dodgy stats ( of 80 people) out of hundreds of thousands of gay women. We’ll, let’s just say it’s not exactly robust.

Are you under 35 though? As a hasty generalisation, it is my single friends under 35 trying to meet other women who are experiencing this. Not coupled up women over 35, and not so much the single women over 35, either.

extract

What I'm seeing in clubs are young lesbians, who are a bit naïve, essentially being bullied into having relationship with people who describe themselves as women, who clearly aren't women,' explained Lucy, speaking exclusively to FEMAIL.'And when they try and say no, or say that's something they're not interested in, they are accused of being transphobic, or of being bigots.'

In reference to the survey, Lucy said 'that's exactly what's going on' - adding that it's something she has personally noticed in the last six years or so.

'You're getting trans women who haven't been through any kind of medical transition, who haven't even attempted to change their appearances, who claimto be trans, or non-binary or gender fluid, who are self-identifying as lesbians.

'You can self-identify as you want, it has no impact on my life. But the difficulty comes when these people, who are self-identifying as lesbians, then demand that lesbians accept them as lesbians and accept them into their dating circle.

My experience of what I'm seeing on the gay scene is that there are lots of very young lesbians, some very vulnerable at just 14, 15 or 16-years-old, who are obviously not attracted to biological men - hence they're lesbians - who are being coerced into dating trans women.

Lucy continued: 'I'm a 43-year-old woman and can tell someone to f* off, whereas young lesbians, who are just coming out of the closest and want to be a part of the community - the gay community which has become the queer community - which is dominated by straight men...it's those people I really worry for.

'It's those people who are being coerced, just like the article says, into having sex with people they don't want to have sex with because they want to fit in.'Discussing more of her personal experiences, Lucy noted how she was banned from Hinge after she said she was only interested in people who were 'biologically female.'She set up her profile to 'women seeking women', and found every third or fourth match was a trans-woman.

Lucy altered her profile to read: 'All I ask is that you be on time, don’t moan about me getting overly involved in Love Island and that you’re a biological female.'

After declaring her preference, she was then permanently banned from the app for ‘transphobia’.

'It was clear that a number of people had complained about my profile saying I was transphobic,' she said. 'You need to remember this is 2020. I'd been out of the closest since I was 16. When I was 16 I could happily say I'm a lesbian and same-sex attracted and that I'd only sleep with women.

'Now, I can't say that and if I do, I'm accused of being a bigot and a transphobe which just seems crazy to me that as a 43-year-old woman, I'm less safe now to say I'm same-sex attracted than I was when I was 16.'

Continues: www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-10132549/Lesbian-claims-shes-seen-people-identify-trans-women-bully-young-girls-relationship.html

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

A surprisingly cutting edge piece from the DM. I respect Lucy Masoud for speaking out.

A couple of MNers on the original thread on this reported similar experiences.

Are they all ‘scaremongering’ too?

There has been MNers who have explained how this happened to them. How exactly they felt the pressure to NOT remove consent when discovering their sex partner was in fact, a male thinking that they were unsafe so went along with it. And then the fear of discussing it afterwards with friends who were part of the same lesbian scene.

Obviously though, in the eyes of these posters saying it is not an issue that should be addressed, it simply doesn't matter that there is an issue where a group feels they cannot reach out. And those posters seem pretty proud to be stating that and not giving in to the fact that it may be a growing issue and should be stopped now.

To the doubters:

Why won't Nancy Kelley unequivocally say that it's not transphobic to be same sex attracted?

There are older, powerful women in Hollywood who Harvey Weinstein didn't or couldn't exploit. Does that mean the other, more vulnerable women's experiences didn't happen?

As an L person I've experienced pressure to declare myself open to what is in blunt terms heterosexual sex right here on MN threads, from TW and from self declared 'allies'. Every time someone starts arguing 'that doesn't really happen' they're supporting exactly that. So yes, it happens, read some threads including ones from the past few days since the BBC article. I'm not a youngster by any means. However I'm old enough, experienced enough and had enough decades where homosexuality wasn't treated as a 'prejudice' to have no hesitation in stating my boundaries in words of one syllable.

I’m getting a bit sick of GC feminists ( mostly straight) telling me that trans women are trying to force me to have sex with them when they absolutely are not.

I've never personally experienced CSA. I've never personally experienced being mugged. I've never personally experienced prostate cancer. However I'm capable of understanding that just because something has not happened to me personally, does not mean that this thing does not exist and is not a problem for others.

@logsonlogsoff

‘ It's just a load of rubbish scaremongering not grounded in reality, another attempt to turn people against trans women.’

This.
I’m getting a bit sick of GC feminists ( mostly straight) telling me that trans women are trying to force me to have sex with them when they absolutely are not.
And as for the BBC with its article quoting very dodgy stats ( of 80 people) out of hundreds of thousands of gay women. We’ll, let’s just say it’s not exactly robust.

So, women who have experienced this are to shut up, is that your stance? And other women are not to talk about it either?

This article is clearly not about you. It's reporting the experiences of lesbians who have been subject to pressure to sleep with transwomen.

Because you have not experienced something does not negate the experiences of women who have.

You know, it's quite common for women to deny sexual assault or sexual harassment is common. I don't see this as any different, apart from the special pleading for this particular group of male people.

Yes, Eresh. Also often framed as 'well, it's never happened to me'.

@logsonlogsoff

‘ It's just a load of rubbish scaremongering not grounded in reality, another attempt to turn people against trans women.’

This.
I’m getting a bit sick of GC feminists ( mostly straight) telling me that trans women are trying to force me to have sex with them when they absolutely are not.
And as for the BBC with its article quoting very dodgy stats ( of 80 people) out of hundreds of thousands of gay women. We’ll, let’s just say it’s not exactly robust.

I don't quite follow.

Is your stance that 'its not transphobic at all for a lesbian to reject all transwomen on the basis that they have male bodies and lesbians are only same sex attracted, but lesbians are not being pressured at all, it's just not happening at all, so it's irrelevant anyway'?

Or is it

'It's very transphobic for a lesbian to reject all transwomen as potential sexual partnerson the basis that they have male bodies and lesbians are only same sex attracted, and they probably want to examine their prejudices around this'?

Was that posted by all TWs?

Would those of you questioning the veracity of the article support a full survey of lesbians to find out how prevalent this kind of pressure is? Or would you be part of the inevitable fightback against the any suggestion of carrying out this kind of research?

@takeitdown

Would those of you questioning the veracity of the article support a full survey of lesbians to find out how prevalent this kind of pressure is? Or would you be part of the inevitable fightback against the any suggestion of carrying out this kind of research?

'Tis a very good question.

However I'd point out the obvious issues from bitter experience (multiple govt consultations for a start)

1. to even suggest it might be happening at all is an unacceptable insult, therefore to survey at all is an act of prejudice

2. any survey will have to be strongly brigaded if not downright fiddled as every survey is to ensure that the wrong answer (even if it would be the truthful one) cannot happen

3. It would give a voice to those who really should not be allowed to speak at all and those voices would be really inconvenient saying objectionable and prejudiced things that others should not have to be exposed to

4. the results, whatever they are, will obviously be wrong and there'll be hundreds of reasons why they show nothing, are faulty and must be discounted. If the group that does the survey has the courage to release the results at all, they will be opening themselves up to a high level of pressure and they would only have to look at Kathleen Stock et al and the total lack of accountability of those who behave extremely badly in the name of their politics to see why this is not to be entered into lightly.

Really you would be forgiven for thinking that it appears as if fair play, honesty, and open handedness, is in itself highly unhelpful to and feared by this political perspective.

This is rather in contrast to most women in support of the BBC article talking here who would be saying:

1. ok, let's get a fair view of the reality of the situation - and that's open minded as to what that turns out to be. We're invested in the reality of it, not one desired outcome.

2. lt is crucial that everyone do the survey honestly and only once, and not enlist internet friends from other countries to weight it, because it's to find out the REAL situation. Messing with it, being dishonest in use of it, helps no one.

3. ALL voices matter in this equally. We want to hear the perspectives of EVERYONE involved, and who we personally agree and disagree with is irrelevant. This is about finding answers that work for everyone.

4. If done properly and not fiddled, the results, whatever they are, should be therefore useful to inform proper action to make sure all needs are met.