Enthusiastic Consent - I am .. confused.

[loopyapp]

So .. AIBU that the once previously highly held gold standard for consent between partners had to be enthusiastic and complete. Any hesitant or unsure thoughts = a grey area in which the other party should NOT ever step into??

I ask because (I am very new to all this so please be gentle if I've got this wrong) this sudden uprise in trans activists insisting that predominantly gay women (though men too apparently) should willingly sleep with transwomen and transmen regardless of what genitalia they have or where they are in their transition is confusing.

Are trans people really insisting that people have sex with them despite their lack of enthusiastic consent because its their right??

I must have this wrong.. surely.. we were banging the #metoo campaign drum not that long ago .. all up in arms about how both parties need to be fully able and willing to consent to engage in anything that could be considered sexual contact.. its how I've been raising my 4 boys .. its what I completely believe in .. that absolutely everyone is allowed to turn sex down at any point, even during, simply because they wish to without having to give a carefully drafted PC reason????

[Edited by MNHQ to remove poll]

@HappyDays40

I can honestly say that in my town there are not lots of trans people wandering about trying to get people to have sex with them. Language is a powerful thing. Nobody has a right to sex. A predatory person is a predatory person regardless of gender.

And what do you think about the fact that Stonewall is promoting an ideology which clearly is about trying to get lesbians to have sex with transwomen - which really was a main point of the article. Of course a predatory person is a predatory person, regardless of sex or identity. Completely irrelevant though.

@Linning

I am a lesbian who has lived in many countries and therefore part of many many queer spaces and environment worldwide and is in almost continuous contact with trans women and I have never once felt threatened by them. I probably personally know over a 100 transwomen and none of them has ever expressed any entitlement to sleeping with women, or has had any objection to lesbians, in fact many of them fully expect to be rejected on the basis that they are trans and while they find it hurtful they tend to be extremely understanding of it, also many transwomen do NOT date women and would have absolutely zero interest in lesbians even if you offered one to them.

I am not saying that no transwoman has ever felt entitled to having sex/date a lesbian, or ever coherced a lesbian to have sex with them, but I have honestly not had one bad experience with a transwoman while I have gotten continuous sexual entitlement by cis-male AND even a fair amount of women (unfortunately including from a fair amount of lesbians).
You have entitled predators of all sexuality and gender. And as a lesbian who spends plenty of time a week with transwomen and people of all gender and sexuality, often in a setting where rape could easily happen. I feel 100 times safer around transwomen than I ever have around cis-straight men and definitely as safe as I do around other lesbians and bisexual women.

I also personally don’t know any lesbians who has ever felt threatened by a transwoman or coherced and and so I don’t actually know any lesbian IRL who fear transwoman the way people like to portray in articles or online forums and our bad experiences seem to be exclusively limited to cis-straight men and some fellow queer women which of course and again doesn’t mean that no transwoman has ever behaved badly. But that the threat that likes to be portrayed by media about the impact of transwomen on lesbian communities simply isn’t at all the reality i and most lesbians I know live in and has been extremely grossly exaggerated in a clear attempt to harm transwomen’s reputations and throw lesbians under the bus.

It’s funny how nobody cared about lesbians and our comforts or us having rights, until transwomen started getting more rights and suddenly all actions against trans individuals are made as a plea to protect lesbians.

As a lesbian I personally feel WAY MORE THREATENED and aggravated by “allies” who try to use my sexuality as a way to defend/justify their anti-trans actions and arguments than I ever have and ever will feel threatened by transwomen themselves and if I could get rid of one of them, I know which one I would vote to get rid of personally and it wouldn’t be transwomen!

I'm just going to say it. I don't believe one word of this. You are straight up lying.

I am not saying that no transwoman has ever felt entitled to having sex/date a lesbian, or ever coherced a lesbian to have sex with them, but

If Linning had truly been saying that, there would have been no need of the "but". I am sick to the back teeth of "but". Either you believe the lesbians in the article, or you don't. Which is it? That's all I need to know about someone' views on this. That's all.

@GenderAtheist

I think the argument that is made is about consequences.

“Yes you lesbians are allowed to consent or not consent to sex , of course you are. But if you don’t consent to sex with us then we have the right to get you thrown out of job / club / friendship group as a hateful bigot”.

Same as

“Yes you women are allowed freedom of speech of course you are. But if you express the wrong opinions then we have the right to get you thrown out of your job / club / friendship group as a hateful bigot. And issue death threats to you and your children “.

So yeah, it’s only a right to consent or speak if you make the correct choices and say the correct words.

This sums it up exactly. Another sad case in acedemia this week

Where does it end?

Have we not learnt that ignoring women to avoid being labelled as prejudiced is a dangerous situation. Let's start by revisiting Rochdale, or Rotherham, or numerous other English Cities.

They didn't do good due diligence. They have had to change the article. One of the women quoted has called for the violent murder and gang rape (!) of named trans women and has by her own admission sexually assaulted several women - by having sex with them without their consent.
The article was awful.

@GrammarTeacher

They didn't do good due diligence. They have had to change the article. One of the women quoted has called for the violent murder and gang rape (!) of named trans women and has by her own admission sexually assaulted several women - by having sex with them without their consent. The article was awful.

The article was not 'awful'.

By TRAs oen admission, Lily Cade was not being quoted in that article as talking about being coerced into sex. The reporter was doing a section on the term 'cotton ceiling'. She wanted to speak to Drew Deveaux, the transwoman who coined the phrase but was unable to contact Drew. However, she was able to contact someone who had worked alongside Drew and believed that Drew coined the phrase after she had rejected to film with them because she found out they were male bodied. That person was Lily Cade. After that the article then goes on to talk about how there was a workshop in Canada entitled 'Overcoming the Cotton Ceiling'.

The 'cotton ceiling' is a play on 'glass ceiling', except the 'cotton' bit refers to the cotton gusset of a woman's underwear. What do you think about that @GrammarTeacher?

The anecdote from Cade has now been removed and the article still stands as valid.

@GrammarTeacher

They didn't do good due diligence. They have had to change the article. One of the women quoted has called for the violent murder and gang rape (!) of named trans women and has by her own admission sexually assaulted several women - by having sex with them without their consent. The article was awful.

And you have done no due diligence before posting.

Rather than continuing the usual deflection, why don’t you engage with the topic of the thread.

Do you believe any lesbian should be subject to coercion to have sex with a transitioned male?

Do you believe the LGBT groups, the prominent people who are always speaking up on behalf of LGBT people should be campaigning to ensuring this, and the abuse of lesbians for defining their boundaries, stops?

Do you understand that that the continued demonization of this article serves to silence more lesbians from discussing it?

Do you understand that teenaged lesbians are watching this and reading all this reaction and this is reinforcing that they should only be lesbians who do trans dick?

@GrammarTeacher

They didn't do good due diligence. They have had to change the article. One of the women quoted has called for the violent murder and gang rape (!) of named trans women and has by her own admission sexually assaulted several women - by having sex with them without their consent. The article was awful.

This makes no sense. Do you allege that all the other lesbians are lying, @GrammarTeacher?

@GrammarTeacher

They didn't do good due diligence. They have had to change the article. One of the women quoted has called for the violent murder and gang rape (!) of named trans women and has by her own admission sexually assaulted several women - by having sex with them without their consent. The article was awful.

You haven’t done due diligence either. Try researching on terfisaslur.com/ to find many examples of horrific threats of violence, murder and rape by trans people

There’s a grey area with the article which takes individual experiences of feeling pressured and puts it onto a generalised macro level “lesbian cis women feel pressured to have sex with trans women” The cases cited are specific, subjective and feature reports of encounters with individuals (mostly not trans people) with completely unreasonable views and behaviours (i.e. trying bully or pressure someone into sex) that aren’t indicative of an entire group’s political position. Surely ANYONE who thinks it’s ok to push someone into sex is just wrong!

You only have to look at the horrendous, disgusting comments on countless videos on TikTok to know that this is true.

BarryFromEastenders

Have you thread this thread?

Because you would also know that there is a known problem of males on social media who are posting threats and abuse for lesbians stating their sexual boundaries. You would also have picked up that Nancy Kelly from Stonewall has told lesbians who don’t accept males as sex partners if those males identify as women need to review their prejudices.

There is so much mixed messaging going on yet not one LGBT group seems to be stating this coercion, this abuse is absolutely wrong and should be stopped. If you have seen a group call this out, please link it up!

And I mean call it out without a qualifying ‘but’. Because even on this thread there are people saying that lesbians must only reject these males nicely and not mention it is because that woman doesn’t want sex with a male or a penis.

The cases cited are specific, subjective and feature reports of encounters with individuals (mostly not trans people) with completely unreasonable views and behaviours (i.e. trying bully or pressure someone into sex) that aren’t indicative of an entire group’s political position.

Your point is very hard to argue when the groups political position (aka Stonewall) is that they have changed the very meaning of the word homosexual, are telling lesbians to review their prejudices, and don’t forget have been campaigning to remove sex by deception issues so trans people don’t have to reveal their sex for their ‘privacy’ (ie. No consideration for their sex partners needs at all).

And have never to my knowledge released a statement stating that it is unacceptable for lesbians to be abused by other LGBT people for stating they don’t choose people with penises. Even on International Lesbian visibility day.

The only reason - absolutely the only reason - that this issue can possibly have emerged is transwomen refusing to take no for an answer and coercing lesbians to consent. If every rejected person had just accepted a simple no, how would we know what excuses they were pushed to provide?

I can see that, under pressure, someone might find it easier to say "It's because your body is male," rather than, "I just don't fancy you." It doesn't brook any argument or leave you open to coercion in the same way, does it? Or it shouldn't.

When receiving a no, everyone needs to respect personal boundaries, bodily autonomy and basic human rights. No is a complete sentence. No explanation or justification is necessary and demanding it, or even asking politely, is inappropriate.

People should seek out someone who is enthusiastic about having sex with them, not batter at a closed door. If you accept a no graciously, you'll never need hear things that might upset you.

@NewlyGranny

actually it’s not just about taking no for an answer. If tw know lesbians are at the lgbt+ group because they are lesbians they should never fucking ask to date them at all.

If they know women are straight or bisexual then it’s fine to ask and then they should listen to a no. But when they know lesbians are lesbians they should never even suggest it. It’s homophobic of them not to respect sexual orientation, same as if a women was asking to date a man she knows is gay.

that aren’t indicative of an entire group’s political position.

The entire group (Stonewall et al)'s political position is not any kind of secret, is it?

The openly stated political position is that a male person who defines themselves as a woman and a lesbian, should be respected in their identity.

This should include homosexual females adapting their sexuality to accommodate this male person. For a female homosexual not to do this is considered prejudiced and transphobic. (for placing limits on their recognition of this male person's identity. Which apparently even includes not placing boundaries on their body and entering it.)

This is an exclusive issue to TW. No other group is insisting that homosexual women become bisexual and 'learn to cope with' sex they do not like, want or enjoy because of a social responsibility.

This is openly what is being required of females by male people .

This is the political reality.

[quote BloodinGutters]@NewlyGranny

actually it’s not just about taking no for an answer. If tw know lesbians are at the lgbt+ group because they are lesbians they should never fucking ask to date them at all.

If they know women are straight or bisexual then it’s fine to ask and then they should listen to a no. But when they know lesbians are lesbians they should never even suggest it. It’s homophobic of them not to respect sexual orientation, same as if a women was asking to date a man she knows is gay.[/quote]
Exactly. Males should not be placing themself in the path of any lesbian, online, or in real life, or in theory.

They shouldn't be on their dating apps, and they should not be opining in their magazines.

@DellaPorter

It's just a load of rubbish scaremongering not grounded in reality, another attempt to turn people against trans women.

The head of Stonewall is quoted saying this:

"Sexuality is personal and something which is unique to each of us. There is no 'right' way to be a lesbian, and only we can know who we're attracted to.

"Nobody should ever be pressured into dating, or pressured into dating people they aren't attracted to. But if you find that when dating, you are writing off entire groups of people, like people of colour, fat people, disabled people or trans people, then it's worth considering how societal prejudices may have shaped your attractions.

"We know that prejudice is still common in the LGBT+ community, and it's important that we can talk about that openly and honestly."

That, right there, in black and white, is social pressure on lesbians to consider sleeping with people they aren't attracted to, because they will be deemed to be "prejudiced" and likened to racists if they don't.

‘ It's just a load of rubbish scaremongering not grounded in reality, another attempt to turn people against trans women.’

This.
I’m getting a bit sick of GC feminists ( mostly straight) telling me that trans women are trying to force me to have sex with them when they absolutely are not.
And as for the BBC with its article quoting very dodgy stats ( of 80 people) out of hundreds of thousands of gay women. We’ll, let’s just say it’s not exactly robust.

appleturnovers

Now, now appleturnovers, there seems to be a growing number of posters who only focus on the the first sentence in the second paragraph.

Nobody should ever be pressured into dating, or pressured into dating people they aren't attracted to.

They don't like to be reminded that the entire section you highlight negates that particular section. Literally makes it a meaningless statement.

It is way too inconvenient for their version of truth.

@Datun

gay men trying to ‘turn’ straight men is an awful stereotype that the gay community have fought against, and that rightly creates outrage.

Tw even asking a lesbian for a date is the same thing. If they asked if they were at the group/of the dating app because they were bi that’s fine, but if they know someone is a lesbian then they should never fucking dare cross the line.

It’s not even just that men are getting away with this, because gay men asking out straight men or straight men asking out lesbians would be ripped into publicly for this these days (I appreciate for a long time straight men trying to ‘turn’ a lesbian would have been laughed at or not challenged publicly, but these days it would be).

So it goes further than just men preying on women. It’s a very privileged subset of men preying on lesbians. And being part of the subset is what lets them do so unchallenged, more than that it lets them do so while being celebrated for being such brave ‘transbians’. So even if the stats didn’t show that tw commit sexual violence at the same rates other men do this sacred caste, not just protected from accusations but actually celebrated for their bravery at preying on lesbians, would alone ALWAYS attracted predatory males.

This goes so so much further than any other form of male violence against woman. It’s a form of male violence against women that is celebrated and cheered on for its bravery by the general public. And that means women’s rights are in the worst state they have ever been in.

Those on this thread arguing that this isn't really happening, it's not really a thing, it's not that bad,

..... what you're actually saying is how uncomfortable you are with the thought of this being a reality, and that you don't agree with it.

Yes. It is a deeply uncomfortable thing, it is ethically unjustifiable. I hear you. But the answer isn't to brush it under the carpet or to try and word into a more comfortable form in your head; it's to address head on.

Are female people allowed to be homosexual even if a male person is upset by the boundaries this places for them?

And as for the BBC with its article quoting very dodgy stats ( of 80 people) out of hundreds of thousands of gay women. We’ll, let’s just say it’s not exactly robust.

This really is tedious.

Shall we point out the laws and rulings that have been done on even less robust stats. The OIC ruling about allowing males to participate in female sport is one great one. 8. 8 people with even dodgier methodology.

The author is completely upfront in stating that they didn't expect this to be taken as being wholly representative.

And are you saying that not enough women are being pressured for this issue to be taken seriously? Are you also denying that lesbians stating their boundaries are not subject to social media abuse and threats? Really?

Not even worth a statement from Stonewall to clarify that it is completely unacceptable for any person to coerce lesbians into unwanted sex, or to make any lesbian who rejects them on account of them being male use compelled speech while rejecting them.

Not even worth a supportive statement from Stonewall?

Because you don't believe that it has happened to 'enough' lesbians to warrant an article calling out the behaviour.

And as for the BBC with its article quoting very dodgy stats ( of 80 people) out of hundreds of thousands of gay women. We’ll, let’s just say it’s not exactly robust.

So not enough abused women for you then?

Thank God no one thought that about Rochdale where only 47 girls were identified as having been groomed.

Where you one of the people that said 'oh it's only 47 children raped. Better keep quiet in case we offend Asian men and get accused of being racists.'

And as for the BBC with its article quoting very dodgy stats ( of 80 people) out of hundreds of thousands of gay women. We’ll, let’s just say it’s not exactly robust.

It's nearly half the women who were asked. That's 'robust'.

And you might want to ask the thousands upon thousands of men sending death and rape threats to women over this issue to cut it out, as it appears to be undermining your argument.

You could drop a line to Stonewall, at the same time, and ask them to stop telling lesbians that they're a little like racists.