Enthusiastic Consent - I am .. confused.

[loopyapp]

So .. AIBU that the once previously highly held gold standard for consent between partners had to be enthusiastic and complete. Any hesitant or unsure thoughts = a grey area in which the other party should NOT ever step into??

I ask because (I am very new to all this so please be gentle if I've got this wrong) this sudden uprise in trans activists insisting that predominantly gay women (though men too apparently) should willingly sleep with transwomen and transmen regardless of what genitalia they have or where they are in their transition is confusing.

Are trans people really insisting that people have sex with them despite their lack of enthusiastic consent because its their right??

I must have this wrong.. surely.. we were banging the #metoo campaign drum not that long ago .. all up in arms about how both parties need to be fully able and willing to consent to engage in anything that could be considered sexual contact.. its how I've been raising my 4 boys .. its what I completely believe in .. that absolutely everyone is allowed to turn sex down at any point, even during, simply because they wish to without having to give a carefully drafted PC reason????

[Edited by MNHQ to remove poll]

"I think in this case it's important to distinguish between "meh, let's give it a go, I'm sure I'll get going once we start" and "meh, you're not gonna stop fucking whinging about it otherwise so it's quicker and easier to just agree to shut you up""

That's not what enthusiastic means though. Both of those scenarios would be unenthusiastic. The second one is the only one that does not reach the threshold of 'freely given consent'.
The enthusiastic thing is a load of bs.

This thread is just a new version of NAMALT.
#metoo - response from people who didn't want to deal with male violence was 'not all men are like that'.
The response here is identical 'not all TW are like that'.
We know that. That doesn't mean we don't need to talk about those who are like this, especially when those who are seem to have a lot of sway with a powerful lobby group. And that's exactly why some TW -Debbie Hayton, Miranda Yardley and Rose of Dawn featured in the article - are standing up against this themselves.

It's rape when you are bullied into to sleeping with sone one you don't want to

Don't belittle the experience of those poor women

Nobody has the right to demand sex.
Who you choose to have sex with is one of very few areas you should have complete control over.
Belief that you have the right to use a woman's body is practically the definition of male entitlement!

Oh look another trans bashing thread thinly veiled as concern for women. Yawn

I think most of the pressure and insistence that lesbians should 'examine their prejudice' and 'learn to cope' with penises often isn't coming from trans people themselves, fwiw.

This is about a cultural movement that is seeking to elevate gender above sex. It's linked to 'queer' theory, that seeks explicitly to remove boundaries and erode societal rules.

If one looks at it objectively, it is clearly at odds with any form of sexual orientation that 'excludes' any group.

Can we just be clear: lesbians don’t refuse to have sex with transwomen because lesbians don’t do dick.

They don’t have sex with transwomen because they are only attracted to women.

Women are not just merely men minus a penis.

There are 6000+ physical differences between male and female bodies. There is no way even the best passing transwoman would ever be close to being physically female. Not including the effect of growing up with male socialisation. Lesbians are not merely not attracted to tw because they will always retain male features but because they can never fully fake the 6000+ difference that women’s bodies have from male ones. And lesbians are only attracted to female bodies.

There maybe some women who have only dated women who find themselves attracted to tw, the term for this is bisexual. Homosexuality is a legally protected characteristic and people can force its definition being rewritten.

• YANBU, OP.

absolutely everyone is allowed to turn sex down at any point, even during, simply because they wish to

Exactly correct.

Enthusiastic consent isn't a difficult thing to understand
It simply means "clearly wants to".
It's not difficult to see the difference between really wanting to have sex with you and really not wanting to.

@BloodinGutters
I absolutely agree with you, I’m saying the same thing. At no point did I say we can’t speak about this, we need to. But whilst I know some men rape, I don’t believe all men are rapists. That’s the issue I have. I definitely think this needs to be brought to attention, but I don’t think people should be making lazy stereotypes. I get bloody pissed off when people make assumptions about me due to my sex, hair colour, etc.

So where are the trans people speaking out against Riley J Dennis, Rachel McKinnon, Drew Deveaux and any number of other TRAs on Twitter who are saying that 'genital preferences are transphobic'? Where are the trans people critically analysing what those people have said, and explaining rest its categorically wrong, with no 'buts'?

Why do the likes of Ash Sarkar say things like 'no one should be pressured to sleep with anyone they don't want to BUUUUUUUT if you don't want to sleep with a woman of colour then that's bigotry, soooooo.....' implying that not wanting to sleep with a transwomen is the same as being racist?

Why does Ruth Aylett, mum of Owen Jones, say on Twitter that lesbians using dildos is no different to having sex with a penis anyway?

For something that 'isn't happening' there seems to be a lot of people tying themselves in knots to try and defend it!

@Regularsizedrudy

Oh look another trans bashing thread thinly veiled as concern for women. Yawn

Wtf?

@Gwenhwyfar

"I have to say if anyone had sex with out of a sense of obligation or because "meh" or they couldn't be bothered one way or another .. I'd be very uncomfortable.

If someone isn't as raring to go as the other it is .. uncomfortable and as the one more into it I can't see how you'd enjoy having sex with someone who's on the fence about it happening"

That's just your preference though. It doesn't mean a lack of enthusiasm is rape.

Lack of enthusiasm doesn’t relate to enthusiasm for sex, it relates to enthusiasm for consenting.

It means being complete sure you want to consent, even if your a bit meh about sex itself. It means being sure your consent is 100%, not that the consent maybe 60% sure and 1% definitely not sure and 39% social pressure.

"Nancy Kelly ceo also said that lesbians should examine their ‘societal prejudices’ if they don’t want to have sex with tw, including the 90%+ who retain their penis.

So, what did Kelley mean if she wasn't calling lesbians bigots for refusing to consider males identifying as women as potential partners?

I'm struggling to infer anything other than this into her comments - and frankly, Stonewall clearly no longer represent the interests of lesbians.

@MamanSparkles

This thread is just a new version of NAMALT. #metoo - response from people who didn't want to deal with male violence was 'not all men are like that'. The response here is identical 'not all TW are like that'. We know that. That doesn't mean we don't need to talk about those who are like this, especially when those who are seem to have a lot of sway with a powerful lobby group. And that's exactly why some TW -Debbie Hayton, Miranda Yardley and Rose of Dawn featured in the article - are standing up against this themselves.

I've not heard of Debbie or rose but Miranda is someone I have a huge amount of respect for. They are balanced and very intelligent.

Are trans people really insisting that people have sex with them despite their lack of enthusiastic consent because its their right??

No, of course not.

But the loudest branch of trans rights activists right now says things like that because it isn't concerned with promoting the rights of trans people, it's concerned with erasing the rights of women.

Given that most transwomen still have a penis you can't even say lesbians don't like penis sex

They are being "encouraged " to accept sex with penis as lesbian sex

Oh look, another women don't matter comment.

Yawn.

Yes, there are some trans people speaking out about this (Debbie, Rose, Miranda) but they definitely seem to be a minority.

[quote Miliao]@Vanishun
Yes, I explicitly said I was assuming the poster’s sex, I don’t know why that confused you?

@Thefartingsofaofdenmarkstreet
Why would you think I don’t believe this happens, I did not say anything of the sort. Unfortunately I know humans are capable of some very horrible behaviour.

I do not agree with those who don’t agree with this having to speak out about it. It’s not their job. This was exactly the repost of many when some terrorists were found to be Muslim. I do not think all Muslims are terrorists and I don’t believe that Muslims that are not terrorists need to ‘speak out’ and show they aren’t. I don’t see how this is any different here.[/quote]
Muslims in this country would be a minority group.

Transwomen are biological males. Males are the most privileged group that has power over the group women.

Men using their privilege and power to doing something about male predatory behaviour is the bare minimum we should expect of this.

Male violence is the problem of all men. This is no different.

Brilliant post, @SpidersAreShitheads.

Nancy Kelly said that anyone (lesbians) writing off whole sections of people to date (like men) should examine their societal prejudices. That is no different to calling same sex attraction, that is protected characteristic under the equality act, defined as same sex attraction not same gender, a societal prejudice.

Here's what she said, and importantly she said that nobody should be pressured in to dating. So she agrees with you there.

"Nobody should ever be pressured into dating, or pressured into dating people they aren't attracted to. But if you find that when dating, you are writing off entire groups of people, like people of colour, fat people, disabled people or trans people, then it's worth considering how societal prejudices may have shaped your attractions.

She didn't call anyone a bigot, she didn't ask anyone to have sex with anyone else. She uses language like 'may want to consider' and 'may have' because she's asking people to consider that there are some prejudices with how we perceive people. It's obvious going to difficult to reconcile your views because how you each define 'lesbian' is different. But she is not calling anybody a bigot,or transphobic!

Although if they get the abuse women get, I can't blame more for not speaking out

[quote Miliao]@Vanishun
Yes, I explicitly said I was assuming the poster’s sex, I don’t know why that confused you?

@Thefartingsofaofdenmarkstreet
Why would you think I don’t believe this happens, I did not say anything of the sort. Unfortunately I know humans are capable of some very horrible behaviour.

I do not agree with those who don’t agree with this having to speak out about it. It’s not their job. This was exactly the repost of many when some terrorists were found to be Muslim. I do not think all Muslims are terrorists and I don’t believe that Muslims that are not terrorists need to ‘speak out’ and show they aren’t. I don’t see how this is any different here.[/quote]
How about the CEO of the charity set up to defend the interests of (among others) lesbians stepping up, therefore?

She could have deplored the loss of lesbian spaces, dating apps, etc as well as the pressure on lesbians to accept as partners the sex they are not attracted to. Instead, she piled on more pressure by suggesting lesbians were 'prejudiced'.

Enthusiastic consent has never been the law in the uk.