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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Original poster

Enthusiastic Consent - I am .. confused.

645 replies

loopyapp · 30/10/2021 11:29

So .. AIBU that the once previously highly held gold standard for consent between partners had to be enthusiastic and complete. Any hesitant or unsure thoughts = a grey area in which the other party should NOT ever step into??

I ask because (I am very new to all this so please be gentle if I've got this wrong) this sudden uprise in trans activists insisting that predominantly gay women (though men too apparently) should willingly sleep with transwomen and transmen regardless of what genitalia they have or where they are in their transition is confusing.

Are trans people really insisting that people have sex with them despite their lack of enthusiastic consent because its their right??

I must have this wrong.. surely.. we were banging the #metoo campaign drum not that long ago .. all up in arms about how both parties need to be fully able and willing to consent to engage in anything that could be considered sexual contact.. its how I've been raising my 4 boys .. its what I completely believe in .. that absolutely everyone is allowed to turn sex down at any point, even during, simply because they wish to without having to give a carefully drafted PC reason????

[Edited by MNHQ to remove poll]

OP posts:
Original poster
loopyapp · 30/10/2021 11:52

@BeyondShrinks

Very true! It's also important that if in the first instance the person doesn't "get into it" that it stops.

OP posts:
FictionalCharacter · 30/10/2021 11:53

Social media is awash with transactivists aggressively saying it's unacceptable for lesbians not to "date" transwomen just because of the minor issue of them having a penis. I can't believe people deny this is happening.

BloodinGutters · 30/10/2021 11:53

@burnoutbabe

I scored low marks on my university consent quiz as apparently "oh go then" isn't enough consent (in a 10 year long relationship)
Enthusiastic consent doesn’t relate to feeling enthusiastic about sex at the time. It means there’s zero doubt that your sure you want to consent.

It’s from the FRIES acronym. Consent should be given freely, reversible, informed, enthusiastic and specific.

It’s the best word that fitted in the acronym I assume and it’s to make it clear, to women especially young or vulnerable women, that consent should be something your completed sure about doing. As in no one should be having sex because they feel it’s expected by social pressures or because they feel he would leave if they didn’t and so on. It doesn’t mean people should only have sex if their in the mood to jump up & down shouting yay first. It’s just the best term that fits in a simple acronym to get that message across. And it works fine until people get deliberately obtuse about it.

GenderAtheist · 30/10/2021 11:53

I think the argument that is made is about consequences.

“Yes you lesbians are allowed to consent or not consent to sex , of course you are. But if you don’t consent to sex with us then we have the right to get you thrown out of job / club / friendship group as a hateful bigot”.

Same as

“Yes you women are allowed freedom of speech of course you are. But if you express the wrong opinions then we have the right to get you thrown out of your job / club / friendship group as a hateful bigot. And issue death threats to you and your children “.

So yeah, it’s only a right to consent or speak if you make the correct choices and say the correct words.

Lalliella · 30/10/2021 11:53

@Chocolatewheatos

I am very pro-trans rights and I totally see why they feel the way they do. They want accepting as the gender they are and its shit to be rejected for something you didn't have control of and have changed. But no one is ever entitled to sex under any circumstances.
But if you only want to have sex with people without penises, you’re obviously going to reject someone with a penis, so they are just lining themselves up for rejection by attempting to sleep with such people.
SpidersAreShitheads · 30/10/2021 11:55

For those on this thread rejecting the idea that it's a problem - it's something that's been caused by Stonewall's insistence that lesbians MUST accept trans women with a penis. And of course gay men must accept trans men with a vagina, although the risk is lower because trans men don't present the same physical threat. Obviously still homophobic though.

Stonewall's insistence that having a same sex preference which extends to include the genitals is transphobic. Apparently the only type of legitimate sexuality is one which is based on gender, not sex. As a lesbian you're slammed as transphobic for wanting a partner with a vagina.

Is it really any surprise that there are some aggressive men who identify as women insisting that lesbians accept their "lady d ick"?! The BBC report may not make comfortable reading but it's a real and present problem.

Original poster
loopyapp · 30/10/2021 11:55

@FictionalCharacter

Social media is awash with transactivists aggressively saying it's unacceptable for lesbians not to "date" transwomen just because of the minor issue of them having a penis. I can't believe people deny this is happening.
It took me ten minutes to find some truly horrible stuff in this vein.. how is it not hate speech???
OP posts:
Vanishun · 30/10/2021 11:56

"It's shit to be rejected for something you didn't have control of".

See, this may be true, but it's also bloody life. We all have to accept that life isn't what we fantasise about. I'd love to be taller, richer and more beautiful. These things won't happen. I don't make up for it by aggressively demanding that young handsome men try it with me or else they're being something-phobic.

BloodinGutters · 30/10/2021 11:58

@ABCeasyasdohrayme

Are trans people really insisting that people have sex with them despite their lack of enthusiastic consent because its their right??

No, trans people are not. There are a small percentage of people who are absolutel twats who think they can demand anything, some of those happen to be trans, but don't put them all in the same boat.

Your voting is ridiculous too, absolutely swayed one way because trans people on the whole do not demand sex from anyone.

Op referred to trans activists doing this. I think it’s well recognised here that trans activists are not all trans people and that plenty, including some in the article she linked are dead against this. Perhaps it’s possible that op could have been clearer in her wording but I doubt Mir or Debbie Hatton or Rose of Dawn would read her op and feel she assumes this is all transwomen.
LaetitiaASD · 30/10/2021 11:58

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

OhWhyNot · 30/10/2021 11:59

Males telling females how things should be

Nothing new or confusing about that

Females telling males I shall make the decision for myself some males get angry and try to put the females right (as they carry male entitlement regardless to feeling they are women and believe they have the right to do this)

Again not new and nothing surprising

Thefartingsofaofdenmarkstreet · 30/10/2021 11:59

@ABCeasyasdohrayme

Are trans people really insisting that people have sex with them despite their lack of enthusiastic consent because its their right??

No, trans people are not. There are a small percentage of people who are absolutel twats who think they can demand anything, some of those happen to be trans, but don't put them all in the same boat.

Your voting is ridiculous too, absolutely swayed one way because trans people on the whole do not demand sex from anyone.

Nancy Kelley, CEO of Stonewall, gave thus quote to the BBC:

"Nobody should ever be pressured into dating, or pressured into dating people they aren't attracted to. But if you find that when dating, you are writing off entire groups of people, like people of colour, fat people, disabled people or trans people, then it's worth considering how societal prejudices may have shaped your attractions.

So if you are a lesbian, and you exclude all transwomen from your dating pool completely on the basis that they are male, then Nancy Kelley, CEO of the biggest organisation for same sex attracted people in the UK, thinks that that is 'prejudice'.

There has been quite a lot of 'no one should be pressured into sex with anyone BUT .......' in the last few days on social media. There should be no 'but'.

Miliao · 30/10/2021 11:59

What a vile AIBU. But you know this. You’re just trying to stir things. Some people are horrible and it doesn’t matter what sex, orientation, colour, religion - but most people don’t take the views of a small percentage of that population and extrapolate it to make it seem that whole group thinks and acts like a whole. I’m guessing you are female, I don’t think all women are prejudiced and mean just because one (you) have deliberately started such a deliberately provocative thread.

Whatiswrongwithmyknee · 30/10/2021 12:01

Clearly not all trans people are doing this. The article you reference had a trans woman standing up against this. The thing I would disagree with though is that it's not a grey area. If you pressurize someone into sex for fear of the consequences, that's rape. People who say that trans people want accepting for the gender they are, are missing the point. For many people, attraction is not about gender, it's about sex. We need a word that describes people who are attracted to people of the same sex. If some people are attracted to the people who they believe have similar identities to them, even if most people don't understand what they mean by identity in this context, then all good and perhaps we should have a different word to describe those people.

Original poster
loopyapp · 30/10/2021 12:01

Hey if in wrong and the activists don't speak for the community as a whole then Lord do the community need to speak up!!

Fancy allowing people who spew rape, at times racists and homophobic tripe in your name!!

Get loud and get involved because being a bystander makes you complicit

OP posts:
Vanishun · 30/10/2021 12:01

Miliao, did you just assume someone's identity?! Shock

Also, what is "sex" to you from your list of characteristics?

Barbie222 · 30/10/2021 12:02

The bottom line is, people can refuse to have sex with you for any reason at all, whether it's because you have genitalia they don't like, a personality they don't like, preferences on diet they don't like, and yes, even a religion / culture / background / belief system / politics / sexual preference they don't gel with, and you've got to suck it up and move on to other fish in the sea like everyone has had to since the dawn of time.

This isn't really an area where anyone can assert a protected characteristic, because you aren't being denied rights and service that you're entitled to, are you?

Aroundtheworldin80moves · 30/10/2021 12:02

No one thinks that ALL transwomen are like that. Just that some people, regardless of their gender expression or sexuality, do act that way.

The truth is that no one is entitled to sex and anyone can refuse to have sex for whatever reason they want, or indeed no reason. You are either attracted to a person or not.

BloodinGutters · 30/10/2021 12:03

@Chocolatewheatos

I am very pro-trans rights and I totally see why they feel the way they do. They want accepting as the gender they are and its shit to be rejected for something you didn't have control of and have changed. But no one is ever entitled to sex under any circumstances.
Only sex can’t be changed. They can do a whole heap of things to change their appearance but that’s not changing sex. And lesbians can’t help only being attracted to female bodies. And homosexuality is a protected characteristic under the equality act, defined as same sex attracted not same gender.

Lesbians shouldn’t have to have others suggest they are ‘rejecting’ anyone.

Consent starts from a place of no. Lesbians say yes only to women. That’s not rejecting anyone. It’s emotional blackmail to suggest it is. It’s the kind of social pressure that means the lesbians in the article doubt whether they have the right to only have sex with women.

SlugRose · 30/10/2021 12:03

@Vanishun

It isn't scaremongering.

The bbc did their due diligence for that article.

It's creepy how many people say those lesbians are lying.

What article? Can you link?
SlugRose · 30/10/2021 12:04

@Barbie222 I agree, I didn't think it was compulsory to even give a reason.

HoardingSamphireSaurus · 30/10/2021 12:04

@Viviennemary

Really does anybody care about this convoluted stuff.
Well any lesbian who has been pressured in such a way might care!

It's not really convoluted. It's not acceptable. No!

Thefartingsofaofdenmarkstreet · 30/10/2021 12:05

@Miliao

What a vile AIBU. But you know this. You’re just trying to stir things. Some people are horrible and it doesn’t matter what sex, orientation, colour, religion - but most people don’t take the views of a small percentage of that population and extrapolate it to make it seem that whole group thinks and acts like a whole. I’m guessing you are female, I don’t think all women are prejudiced and mean just because one (you) have deliberately started such a deliberately provocative thread.
Who said all transwomen are like this?

Are you denying that it happens?

SlugRose · 30/10/2021 12:05

@Vanishun ah found it upthread sorry!

Original poster
loopyapp · 30/10/2021 12:06

@Miliao

What a vile AIBU. But you know this. You’re just trying to stir things. Some people are horrible and it doesn’t matter what sex, orientation, colour, religion - but most people don’t take the views of a small percentage of that population and extrapolate it to make it seem that whole group thinks and acts like a whole. I’m guessing you are female, I don’t think all women are prejudiced and mean just because one (you) have deliberately started such a deliberately provocative thread.
If that's the case then why aren't transpeople speaking up and out against those that are spewing this hateful bile?

You cannot deny its out there. 10 minutes is all it took me on twitter and I didn't even sign up!! Used the Web browser.. the things being said about women who don't want sex with transwomen are ... far .. FAR worse than anything I've said or any other poster here.

So if all transpeople don't believe this or agree with the social media influx of rape insinuation then speak the feck up and get involved because staying quiet is complicity allowing it.

OP posts: