Page 6 | Enthusiastic Consent - I am .. confused.

MaxNormal · 30/10/2021 12:46

Some more:

bordersmidgebites · 30/10/2021 12:46

Just to be clear

It's transwomen, mostly with penis intact that lesbians are being asked to consider thier prejudice against

Not transmen who are biologically female

DoesHePlayTheFiddle · 30/10/2021 12:47

@MaxNormal

twitter.com/EuanRL/status/1453737147681308673?t=TkvCCC_kqcA41oz4J-HpdA&s=19

This is what lesbians are up against.

Good grief.

Thefartingsofaofdenmarkstreet · 30/10/2021 12:48

All I am saying is that the view of a small minority should not be thought as the view of that whole group. As in your example, some men rape, we need to talk about rape, but we should not assume all men think they should be able to rape.

Well, by your logic we shouldn't talk about rape by men at all because that implies that we think that all men are rapists? Are we allowed to talk about some transwomen trying to coerce people into sex or not?

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 30/10/2021 12:49

They want accepting as the gender they are and its shit to be rejected for something you didn't have control of and have changed.

It is shit but unfortunately sexual attraction and orientation are about people's sex and not just their gender. They involve bodies. It's not reasonable to expect anyone to stay attracted just because of a person's gender when they are not attracted to (or feel repelled by) the person's sex.

And even more unfortunately, to avoid trans people feeling rejected, some quite influential organisations have tried to insist that it's unacceptable for people to acknowledge openly that they have only same-sex attractions and that gender doesn't do it for them.

As we old feminists know, the personal is political but also less obviously the political is personal. Once people start believing it's not ok to have a sexual preference only a gender one, then someone who is honest about a genine sexual preference can find herself in a lot of shit.

And what makes this especially unfair is that no-one is giving this shit to straight people of either sex, or to gay men, if their sexual orientation doesn't include trans people. Nearly all the shit seems to be directed at lesbians who don't want to have sex with transwomen. Lesbians don't exist just to validate transwomen that they really are women, but that's what they're being pressured to do - some of them personally through pressure to accept transwomen as sexual partners or be accused of cruelty and prejudice, and others politically through not being allowed to publicly define lesbianism as a sex-based attraction at all.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 30/10/2021 12:49

Has the world turned on its axis? Imagine a lesbian rape victim finding out she'd essentially been tricked into sex with a biological man? Is this even legal?

Sex by deception is currently illegal, however Stonewall are campaigning to change that.

Stompythedinosaur · 30/10/2021 12:49

YABU for saying you are confused, when you aren't. You just want to have another thread slagging off trans people.

It is not true that trans people are widely demanding non-consentual sex, it is just scaremongering.

bordersmidgebites · 30/10/2021 12:51

I don't think anyone has said it's the whole group

However the trans nature of the perpetrator s is relevant

Those women would not have slept with those people , those women would not have been under that pressure, if the perpetrators were not trans

I do also think that if the trans community does not as a group express outrage , it does increase the likelihood that they will be assumed to approve of the rape of lesbians

Which would not help their image and cause a lot more damage than the article itself

Thefartingsofaofdenmarkstreet · 30/10/2021 12:51

@Stompythedinosaur

YABU for saying you are confused, when you aren't. You just want to have another thread slagging off trans people.

It is not true that trans people are widely demanding non-consentual sex, it is just scaremongering.

So is it just 'scaremongering' to discuss coercive practices perpetrated by males who identify as men? Is that OK? Or are females supposed to just sit down and shut up and put up with whatever comes their way?

Or is it only if the males identify as women that females have to stay quiet?

NotBadConsidering · 30/10/2021 12:52

This has been going on for years. Look at the tweets here, they are from years ago.

terfisaslur.com/cotton-ceiling/

And consider it apparently took 6 months for the higher powers at the BBC to agree to publish the article. Women can’t talk about it, and when there’s evidence of it happening, it’s dismissed. It shouldn’t matter if it’s only 1% or 10% or 50% of transwomen pushing these ideas. The first thing should be condemnation and empathy with the victims, not denial and silencing.

bordersmidgebites · 30/10/2021 12:52

How many women need to be raped before we can talk about it? Before giving people a bad name becomes less important than the needs of the victims of physical violence ?

Miliao · 30/10/2021 12:54

@Thefartingsofaofdenmarkstreet
I don’t understand which bit of me saying ‘we need to talk about rape’ you don’t get? WE NEED TO TALK ABOUT RAPE. Is that clearer? Coercing people into having sex is rape, whatever gender you identify with. My ‘logic’ is simple. We need to talk about rape! Where did I say we didn’t?

CaptSkippy · 30/10/2021 12:54

@VladmirsPoutine

There actually can never be any sort of reconciliation. In the main most people agree that forcing someone to have sex with you is rape. But if you are of the view that TWAW therefore a coupling between a cis lesbian and a trans woman is a lesbian relationship. I can't find it in myself to police who other people sleep or have relationships with but most trans people aren't out there trying to harangue women into sex.

Not all lesbian are attracted to all other women or even to all other lesbians. That's basically assuming that all lesbians are the same and all are attracted to each other.

It is extremely offensive to assume women who are lesbians are not individuals because they are lesbians and that they all like the same.

BigFatLiar · 30/10/2021 12:54

Enthusiastic consent is incredibly important. No one should be having sex with anyone who doesn't show clear signs of being 'up for it'.

They need a different term.
'Enthusiastic - I really want to
up for it - I'm ok with it

Outside the idea of sex...
Going for a meal...
Entusiastic - I'm really looking forward to a trip to Weatherspoons and would be disappointed if we didn't go
up for it - Sounds like a good idea but 'd be happy with beans on toast if it doesn't come off.

Hugoslavia · 30/10/2021 12:55

Oh god. More trans bashing. Let's all dump them into the same category, just because there are a few arseholes out there. Just the same as there are straight people! There is so much transphobia around and scaremongering.

Stompythedinosaur · 30/10/2021 12:55

So is it just 'scaremongering' to discuss coercive practices perpetrated by males who identify as men? Is that OK? Or are females supposed to just sit down and shut up and put up with whatever comes their way?

Or is it only if the males identify as women that females have to stay quiet?

I am a strong feminist and have never suggested women have to "stay quiet" about anything. I do tire of the idea that I cannot be a feminist without also being an anti-trans bigot.

Of course woman should oppose anyone attempting rape. I just think it is fully disingenuous to suggest that a vulnerable sect of society are all rapists when that is clearly not the case. It is just a way to stir up hate.

LakieLady · 30/10/2021 12:56

@FictionalCharacter

Social media is awash with transactivists aggressively saying it's unacceptable for lesbians not to "date" transwomen just because of the minor issue of them having a penis. I can't believe people deny this is happening.

Me neither.

As a friend of mine put it: "If I wanted to have sex with some cock with a cock, I wouldn't be a fucking lesbian".

I really hate the way lesbians are being vilified over this. No-one should be vilified for their sexual preferences, ffs.

bordersmidgebites · 30/10/2021 12:58

NO ONE IS SAYING ALL TRANS PEOPLE ARE RAPISTS

But some are using their trans status and nature to help them commit rape

Do you know the difference between some and all ????

DavidDevantsSpiritWife · 30/10/2021 12:59

@Hugoslavia

Oh god. More trans bashing. Let's all dump them into the same category, just because there are a few arseholes out there. Just the same as there are straight people! There is so much transphobia around and scaremongering.

Nobody on this thread is saying all trans people are like this.

But some are. And that's why it needs to be talked about.

ArabellaScott · 30/10/2021 12:59

@Hugoslavia

Oh god. More trans bashing. Let's all dump them into the same category, just because there are a few arseholes out there. Just the same as there are straight people! There is so much transphobia around and scaremongering.

It's 'scaremongering' when women talk about their experiences of being coerced into sex?

21budgies · 30/10/2021 12:59

@ABCeasyasdohrayme

Are trans people really insisting that people have sex with them despite their lack of enthusiastic consent because its their right??

No, trans people are not. There are a small percentage of people who are absolutel twats who think they can demand anything, some of those happen to be trans, but don't put them all in the same boat.

Your voting is ridiculous too, absolutely swayed one way because trans people on the whole do not demand sex from anyone.

Sex is very important to a lot of men. Transwomen (biological men) are in a difficult position, because most of them want to have sex with lesbians because as men they're mostly attracted to women, but they think of themselves as lesbians so only want to have sex with lesbians. Lesbians by definition are likely to want to have sex with biological women only. Hence a lot of transwomen will be left without a sexual partner they deem to be acceptable. It's hardly surprising that some of them will put pressure on lesbians to have sex with them. I'd be amazed if we weren't hearing stories of coerced sex and rape in this community.

Ijustreallywantacat · 30/10/2021 13:00

I accept wholly that of course not all transpeople think this way however a very vocal, active and vicuous subgroup of their overall community obviously do and the lack of condemnation of it is .. almost as loud.

I see what you're saying, but where do you think that stonewall and other trans activists (as in people who are sincerely standing up for trans people) are going to put their energy - in to the small subset of trans people who do say controversial things, or articles like the BBC, which are tarnishing the reputation of transwomen as a whole? That's what transpeople deal with. That's what the marches and the campaigns are for. To fight against the rhetoric that transwomen are sexual predators. That's more important than policing what people call themselves or getting enraged about hypothetical scenarios.

Nancy Kelley and others like her are trying their best to say to you that they agree that coercing people in to sex is wrong. That's what she said. She has a different idea than you about what gender and sexuality is. Fair enough.

I just think that asking 'where is the condemnation?' Is unhelpful. You really want people to expend their energy in raking through twitter and finding inflammatory comments from transwomen, then saying 'stop that!'?

I don't even know what to say at this point. Misinformation, othering of people, and division are how all hateful ideologies start. It frightens me that so many are getting whipped up in to a frenzy about transwomen, who make up so many of my dear friends.

Thefartingsofaofdenmarkstreet · 30/10/2021 13:01

Of course woman should oppose anyone attempting rape. I just think it is fully disingenuous to suggest that a vulnerable sect of society are all rapists when that is clearly not the case. It is just a way to stir up hate.

Who said all transwomen are rapists? Absolutely no one.

Ohsugarhoneyicetea · 30/10/2021 13:01

It all boils down to this continued ridiculous conflation of sex and gender. Gender is not your sex, homosexuals are not attracted to people of the same gender they are attracted to people of the same sex. Butch lesbians are not feminine gender, camp gay men are not masculine gender, but they are males and females.

Its so simple I cannot understand why this lie continues to be pushed at us. So we can be forced to participate in another persons self image apparently. That's where the lack of consent begins, the attacks on homosexuality are just a natural progression from that.

NotBadConsidering · 30/10/2021 13:02

Of course woman should oppose anyone attempting rape. I just think it is fully disingenuous to suggest that a vulnerable sect of society are all rapists when that is clearly not the case. It is just a way to stir up hate.

No one has said all transwomen are rapists. The article didn’t say that. It said some are. And some prominent activists promote the idea that lesbians are transphobic for excluding males. And Stonewall’s chief executive, in a statement, agreed. And none of the people condemning the article have condemned the ideas expressed by the trans activists quoted that lesbians are being transphobic if they exclude males. Instead it’s been the equivalent of NAMALT, but NATWALT.

Do those who think this is scaremongering believe that lesbians who exclude males due the fact they’re male are transphobic?