Enthusiastic Consent - I am .. confused.

[loopyapp]

So .. AIBU that the once previously highly held gold standard for consent between partners had to be enthusiastic and complete. Any hesitant or unsure thoughts = a grey area in which the other party should NOT ever step into??

I ask because (I am very new to all this so please be gentle if I've got this wrong) this sudden uprise in trans activists insisting that predominantly gay women (though men too apparently) should willingly sleep with transwomen and transmen regardless of what genitalia they have or where they are in their transition is confusing.

Are trans people really insisting that people have sex with them despite their lack of enthusiastic consent because its their right??

I must have this wrong.. surely.. we were banging the #metoo campaign drum not that long ago .. all up in arms about how both parties need to be fully able and willing to consent to engage in anything that could be considered sexual contact.. its how I've been raising my 4 boys .. its what I completely believe in .. that absolutely everyone is allowed to turn sex down at any point, even during, simply because they wish to without having to give a carefully drafted PC reason????

[Edited by MNHQ to remove poll]

@Chocolatewheatos

I am very pro-trans rights and I totally see why they feel the way they do. They want accepting as the gender they are and its shit to be rejected for something you didn't have control of and have changed. But no one is ever entitled to sex under any circumstances.

You see, the huge bloody shame about all of this is that trans women and women could be such fucking amazing allies.

Trans women have to put up with bollocks from men, and they are at risk of violence because some men feel threatened by the presence of a man who identifies as a woman. Especially if they're an attractive trans woman.

The point is that lesbians don't find penises attractive. And that's OK.

The fact is that women have single sex spaces because predatory men are a problem.

The fact is some trans women have sexually attacked women, behaving in the same way as a non-trans man. Studies show that patterns of behaviour don't change post-transition; there's still a difference between sexes - ie/a trans woman still retains male behaviour patterns, statistically.

The fact is we don't know which trans women are safe and which are predatory men who may attack us.

The fact is that many of us care about trans women (and trans men) feeling safe and secure - but aren't prepared to give up our own rights and safety in the process.

If the trans community stopped coming after women, we could be such amazing, powerful allies. We could create spaces that work for both communities, while still supporting each other.

The "TERF! TERF !" slur assumes that we don't give a shit about trans women and are trying to deny their rights and identity. And the truth is that many of us do care what happens to the trans community, but we're not prepared to put ourselves and our daughters at risk to accommodate male bodies which could be a danger.

It's just a huge, massive missed opportunity to work together for both our benefit. But while Stonewall is still insisting that lesbians accept bodies with a penis or else be decried as bigots and transphobic, there's no hope. As usual, women's rights and women's safety is bottom of the pile.

Last year there were a few hashtags dealing with this issue #superstraight, #supergay and #superlesbian, because people were gettting fed up with this shit. In Reddit alone the sub create for it absolutely exploded and hundreds of thousands of members over night.

It hit a nerve, because consent is important to men and women alike. No one wants to be forced to have sex with someone they are not atracted to and attraction is extremely personal.

And personally I don't understand it either. Why would anyone even want to have sex with someone who is not attracted to them. What could possibly be enjoyable in one-sided attraction?

But maybe that's just me.

@Miliao

What a vile AIBU. But you know this. You’re just trying to stir things. Some people are horrible and it doesn’t matter what sex, orientation, colour, religion - but most people don’t take the views of a small percentage of that population and extrapolate it to make it seem that whole group thinks and acts like a whole. I’m guessing you are female, I don’t think all women are prejudiced and mean just because one (you) have deliberately started such a deliberately provocative thread.

It’s only a small % of men who actually rape women.

Should we not discuss male violence against women and girls because it might make people hate men?

If this wasn't happening, Lesbian dating apps would only have women on them, rather than people who would like to date a Lesbian.

consent between partners had to be enthusiastic and complete

What does this mean?

Outside of the sex front for example would I be a controlling abusive bitch for getting my DH to take me to the pictures to see a film he didn't want to see?

Surely in a relationship you don't need to 'enthusiastic' about everything, what happens to the MN maintenance shag?

@Whatiswrongwithmyknee

Clearly not all trans people are doing this. The article you reference had a trans woman standing up against this. The thing I would disagree with though is that it's not a grey area. If you pressurize someone into sex for fear of the consequences, that's rape. People who say that trans people want accepting for the gender they are, are missing the point. For many people, attraction is not about gender, it's about sex. We need a word that describes people who are attracted to people of the same sex. If some people are attracted to the people who they believe have similar identities to them, even if most people don't understand what they mean by identity in this context, then all good and perhaps we should have a different word to describe those people.

This ^^

Sex by coercion is rape. Legally as well as morally.

If lesbians refuse even to consider transwomen as partners they'reBIGOTS.

Nancy Kelley did not say this at all.

I have not responded to the ridiculous leading question on the poll. But yes, I do believe that the BBC article and attitudes like this are fear-mongering, hurtful rhetoric. I sat there with my mouth agape.

It's an article that is trying, and succeeding, in making transwomen as a group people to be afraid of.

Are there trsnswomen out there who have pressured people in to sex? Of course there are! That's also true of almost every human group out there. There are transmen who have done so. There are natal women who have done so. There are people from every racial group who have done so. Just like all of these groups, predatory transwomen make up an extremely small percentage of the group and do not represent it in general.

I have spent much of my adult life surrounded by trans, non binary, and gender diverse people as a bisexual woman who for a time identified as a lesbian. Not once have I been pressured or coerced in to sex by them.

I refuse to give in to fear and hatred. Transwomen are welcome in my space.

There actually can never be any sort of reconciliation. In the main most people agree that forcing someone to have sex with you is rape. But if you are of the view that TWAW therefore a coupling between a cis lesbian and a trans woman is a lesbian relationship. I can't find it in myself to police who other people sleep or have relationships with but most trans people aren't out there trying to harangue women into sex.

It's the ultimate in male entitlement and sadly totally unsurprising.

@BigFatLiar

consent between partners had to be enthusiastic and complete

What does this mean?

Outside of the sex front for example would I be a controlling abusive bitch for getting my DH to take me to the pictures to see a film he didn't want to see?

Surely in a relationship you don't need to 'enthusiastic' about everything, what happens to the MN maintenance shag?

I'm sorry if I've been misleading it relates to this :

www.bustle.com/articles/178198-planned-parenthood-graphic-uses-fries-to-explain-consent-in-a-way-anyone-can-understand

I don't think it's means one has to be doing cartwheels with excitement but to simply have a "yes" isn't enough.. the website explains it better than me.

Nancy Kelley did not say this at all.

What was she saying then, when she was talking about excluding trans people and 'societal prejudices'? How does that work in the context of lesbians deciding that they will exclude all transwomen from their dating pool on the basis that they are male?

@CaptSkippy

Last year there were a few hashtags dealing with this issue #superstraight, #supergay and #superlesbian, because people were gettting fed up with this shit. In Reddit alone the sub create for it absolutely exploded and hundreds of thousands of members over night.

It hit a nerve, because consent is important to men and women alike. No one wants to be forced to have sex with someone they are not atracted to and attraction is extremely personal.

And personally I don't understand it either. Why would anyone even want to have sex with someone who is not attracted to them. What could possibly be enjoyable in one-sided attraction?

But maybe that's just me.

Their are plenty men out there who want to have sex with women who don’t really want to have sex with them. There’s entire genres of porn dedicated to turning lesbians or turning a virgin into a whore.

Women can’t imagine wanting to have sex with someone who doesn’t want to fuck us. But plenty men think very differently.

No one has a right to have sex with anyone. I've seen several trans individuals on social media advise it's transphobic if a man doesn't want to have sex with a trans woman or vice versa. Instead of calling it how it is, being straight. I wouldn't have sex with a trans man, that doesn't make me transphobic, only straight.

That is a very enlightening article. I hadn't thought about the issue before.

I think the issue is not specific to this subset of the trans community and is actually symptomatic of a wider issue - whether sex (as in the act) is a fundamental right

If sex is a fundamental right then it is okay for some disabled people to expect their carers to procure prostitutes for them
If sex is a fundamental right then it is okay for incels to expect women will sleep with them and be angry when they wont
If sex is a right then it is okay for some transwomen to expect lesbians to sleep with them

The issue is that if people (or the law) has the perspective that sex is a fundamental right then it erodes the rights of others to say no, it perpetuates the sex industry and it causes these scenarios

The problem is that at its core the majority of these people demanding sex as a right are male (either currently or at birth) and the people they are demand it off tend to be female. The imbalance of power in a patriarchal society (more lawmakers being male) etc is fundamentally why I believe these situations develop

Having sex isn't, and cannot be a right

@VladmirsPoutine

There actually can never be any sort of reconciliation. In the main most people agree that forcing someone to have sex with you is rape. But if you are of the view that TWAW therefore a coupling between a cis lesbian and a trans woman is a lesbian relationship. I can't find it in myself to police who other people sleep or have relationships with but most trans people aren't out there trying to harangue women into sex.

So if the word 'lesbian' applies to womem who have relationships with males, or to males who have relationships with women, or to males who have relationships with other males who also identify as women, then what is the word one can use to describe females who are exclusively only attracted to other females?

Are they even allowed a word to describe themselves?

@Vanishun

"It's shit to be rejected for something you didn't have control of".

See, this may be true, but it's also bloody life. We all have to accept that life isn't what we fantasise about. I'd love to be taller, richer and more beautiful. These things won't happen. I don't make up for it by aggressively demanding that young handsome men try it with me or else they're being something-phobic.

This is the point exactly.

On average, for every person who rejects you for something you have no control over, you reject someone else for something they have no control over.

This is a fundamental right. Attraction is not up for debate.

@Ijustreallywantacat

If lesbians refuse even to consider transwomen as partners they'reBIGOTS.

Nancy Kelley did not say this at all.

I have not responded to the ridiculous leading question on the poll. But yes, I do believe that the BBC article and attitudes like this are fear-mongering, hurtful rhetoric. I sat there with my mouth agape.

It's an article that is trying, and succeeding, in making transwomen as a group people to be afraid of.

Are there trsnswomen out there who have pressured people in to sex? Of course there are! That's also true of almost every human group out there. There are transmen who have done so. There are natal women who have done so. There are people from every racial group who have done so. Just like all of these groups, predatory transwomen make up an extremely small percentage of the group and do not represent it in general.

I have spent much of my adult life surrounded by trans, non binary, and gender diverse people as a bisexual woman who for a time identified as a lesbian. Not once have I been pressured or coerced in to sex by them.

I refuse to give in to fear and hatred. Transwomen are welcome in my space.

You don’t speak for all women. You can’t throw about other women’s rights to single sex spaces and services that are protected in law.

Nancy Kelly said that anyone (lesbians) writing off whole sections of people to date (like men) should examine their societal prejudices. That is no different to calling same sex attraction, that is protected characteristic under the equality act, defined as same sex attraction not same gender, a societal prejudice.

Can anyone find so much as one example of a black or disabled women threatening to rape someone who doesn't want to (euphemistically...) 'date' them?

Or a "AFAB" (not an acronym I would usually use, but for clarity here) non-binary/trans identifying person of any persuasion who threatens rape when someone doesn't want to "date" them?

Agree with @DellaPorter - I don't get the impression that 'trans people' or 'trans activists' are demanding all lesbians must have sex with trans people or be labelled transphobes.

I am sure there have been some shitty individuals who have pressurised lesbians against their will, but it doesn't amount to every single one wanting that or a movement by rights activists. I get why trans women may feel worried about calling this out as unfortunately it has been weaponised as an anti-trans thing, rather than being understood an 'anti abusive people' thing. In an ideal world they should be making noise about these abusive individuals, but while people are smugly going 'Oho, but that never happens does it?' understandably that makes it difficult.

And yes I know there are trans/pro trans people on social media shouting about 'suck my girl dick' etc, but that is just 'nut picking' and finding what amounts in reality to a few extreme people, it's not real life.

I'm also sure most trans women who have disclosed their status would understand the difference between a potential sexual partner telling them 'I'm sorry, this isn't going to work out for me' (pesonal choice) and 'Ugh, get away from me you pervy autogynophile' (transphobia).

Anyone who refuses to speak out about rape because the perpetrators are untouchables is no better than those whi ignored Jimmy Saville, those who ignored the Rotherham gangs , those who ask women not to complain to protect the abusers family

It happens time and time again, and it's wrong

@Ijustreallywantacat

If lesbians refuse even to consider transwomen as partners they'reBIGOTS.

Nancy Kelley did not say this at all.

I have not responded to the ridiculous leading question on the poll. But yes, I do believe that the BBC article and attitudes like this are fear-mongering, hurtful rhetoric. I sat there with my mouth agape.

It's an article that is trying, and succeeding, in making transwomen as a group people to be afraid of.

Are there trsnswomen out there who have pressured people in to sex? Of course there are! That's also true of almost every human group out there. There are transmen who have done so. There are natal women who have done so. There are people from every racial group who have done so. Just like all of these groups, predatory transwomen make up an extremely small percentage of the group and do not represent it in general.

I have spent much of my adult life surrounded by trans, non binary, and gender diverse people as a bisexual woman who for a time identified as a lesbian. Not once have I been pressured or coerced in to sex by them.

I refuse to give in to fear and hatred. Transwomen are welcome in my space.

I think your post is by far the most measured counter response and I absolutely respect what you've said and thank you for your contribution.

Recently the rise of the Incel movement has seen a complete stand against that mindset from straight men. Condemning the incel movement and their social media presence.

Where are the transpeoples response to the as you say, small sect of their community's hate speech about leabians on social media.

I accept wholly that of course not all transpeople think this way however a very vocal, active and vicuous subgroup of their overall community obviously do and the lack of condemnation of it is .. almost as loud.

"I have to say if anyone had sex with out of a sense of obligation or because "meh" or they couldn't be bothered one way or another .. I'd be very uncomfortable.

If someone isn't as raring to go as the other it is .. uncomfortable and as the one more into it I can't see how you'd enjoy having sex with someone who's on the fence about it happening"

That's just your preference though. It doesn't mean a lack of enthusiasm is rape.

The only people making this an anti trans thing are the TRA community

The article was very clear .., some ... it also interviewed transwomen who are totally supportive of the victims , who would never accuse someone of transphobia for being homosexual

@Vanishun
Yes, I explicitly said I was assuming the poster’s sex, I don’t know why that confused you?

@Thefartingsofaofdenmarkstreet
Why would you think I don’t believe this happens, I did not say anything of the sort. Unfortunately I know humans are capable of some very horrible behaviour.

I do not agree with those who don’t agree with this having to speak out about it. It’s not their job. This was exactly the repost of many when some terrorists were found to be Muslim. I do not think all Muslims are terrorists and I don’t believe that Muslims that are not terrorists need to ‘speak out’ and show they aren’t. I don’t see how this is any different here.