AIBU to ask about the life experiences of unattractive women

[Iamnotattractive]

Was impressed by the recent thread about pretty privilege, and stories there. Was so different to my experience, it sounded like a different planet.

So, I am an unattractive woman, and have been all my life. No obvious single disfigurement, I just look weird, overall badly put together.

I've been asked out only twice in my life (once at 17, once at 27) - had children with the second guy, despite having serious misgivings, but he was really the only option (it did not last). Men never notice I even exist - even the ones I work with for a year or so struggle to recall my name (I don't mean the immediate team members, but someone further out). I remember all the compliments I was given in my life, as the total number is under 10 . If a guy offered to buy me a drink or offered to carry something heavy for me, my first thought would be that they have some criminal intentions - hypothetically, of course, it never happened in reality.

On the positive side, I have never experienced any inappropriate sexual attention or harassment. I don't also have to worry about losing my looks as I age - if nothing helped me at 16, nothing will help me at almost 40.

So wanted to ask other unattractive women, how does life look for you? Similar to mine?

*genuinely not generally

@DeJaDont

I've got to say I think a lot of attractiveness is down to self confidence.

I have been out with some very unusual looking people that I wasn't remotely attracted to to start with but very often they won me over due to a great sense of humour, lovely personality etc.

Myself, I'm not typically beautiful by a country mile. My teeth are incredibly crooked and my mouth is full of fillings due to a terrible child hood diet. I've always been a bit overweight but very firmly obese since mid twenties. I'm ginger with lots of freckles (and not the gentle sprinkle, the extra bold tsunami that l looks like I'm more freckles than pasty white skin).

But I was raised to be fiercely independent, taught electronics and engineering and I rode horses and did gymnastics. My dad pretty much raised me as a typical boy but with access to girls activities as well as well. And whatever I did I did pretty well. My confidence and resilience was through the roof. I was raised talking to adults like equals and asking questions so I can often come across as arrogant. Plus I have a huge bank of trivia stored in my brain. This meant that I would insert myself into situations, correct teachers when they were wrong, talk with people that would never normally have entertained a mere teenage woman who had just started an entry level job etc. some people absolutely hated me and that's fine.... but men? I was never ever short of male attention. I have had dozens of proposals from the laughable to the one I actually accepted.

Im certainly not overly attractive but I DO have presence and that comes from having the self assurance of walking into a room and knowing that even if I'm out of my depth I can take it till you make it. And people either love or loathe me. Not really any in betweens🤷🏼‍♀️.

I am so glad that i am not the only one. I am not for one moment disagreeing with or denigrating anybody's lived experience but i do wonder how much of people's experience is either down to judging themselves and/or accepting the judgement of others?

And yes I am absolutely with Claudia Winkelman. Iris Apfel is also another good example

In my younger days, I often felt that I lived in a different world from that of my more attractive friends. They frequently told me how lovely/friendly/welcoming/open/funny certain individuals or groups were. Yet when I met them invariably I was either ignored or on some occasions mocked/talked down to.

I have found that age has been a great leveller. Partly because the men I meet now are mainly old and married (so less interested in whether I am worth considering as a potential girlfriend) and partly because I've found that most of the other women of my age also look quite plain.

The content of its a misogyny thing could be right. I'm far from special but what I ABSOLUTELY am is assertive. People (men) treat me with respect as I make it clear I will certainly call out anybody that's treats me or anybody else in a rude or derogatory manner.

Interestingly, a great deal of the men that have been interested in me have wanted me to be incredibly subservient in the bedroom. So it's like the only reason they wanted to get me into bed was for the challenge of being able to dominate the gobby bird that wrong foots them and unbalances their world view of them being king.

I was always called the ugly child when I was a kid by family members especially my dad, my sister was always the beautiful one, in my teens and early 20s I think I got ugly duckling syndrome because I started getting attention/compliments, early 30s now and I can’t still work out whether or not I’m ugly. I’ve been told I’m pretty, been told a few times very pretty but other times I’ve been called ugly ok looking so I’m baffled

I am definitely on the lower than average end of the scale looks wise (slightly weasely face, and once someone said I looked like all my features are scrunched into one small part of my face), but I am vivacious as all heck, punch well above my looks weight dating and spouse wise, and would say I've done well in terms of work progress and close group of lovely friends. I don't mind getting older as I'm not known for my beauty. I also have experienced plenty unwanted attention. Hope this is helpful to you in any way x

I've got to say I think a lot of attractiveness is down to self confidence.

I respectfully disagree, I do have self confidence still but it doesn’t change my appearance. I have managed to secure a job I was unqualified for with the help of confidence.
Funnily enough, I’m more confident than one of my attractive friends - what a coincidence they don’t get insulted on their appearance by strangers.

I have been out with some very unusual looking people that I wasn't remotely attracted to to start with but very often they won me over due to a great sense of humour, lovely personality etc.

You seem like a lovely person, but my very real life experiences tell me that not everyone thinks like this.
Also, it seems women are much more likely to think like this as we see men as well rounded people, and value them for other things than just looks. Whereas, men are less likely to think like this and sadly many still determine a woman’s worth firstly through her looks. Everything else is a nice addition (e.g., there was even an academic study which showed men don’t see more educated woman as more desirable unless they were physically attractive)

Ehhh... I don't think Claudia Winkleman qualifies as unattractive.

I've experienced both sides of this. As a teenager, I had terrible acne, awful glasses, and extremely crooked teeth which required a fixed brace. Boys at school used to come up to me and say, "God, you're ugly" and ask me why I bothered doing my hair as it wasn't going to make a difference to how hideous my face was.

Then I had about 15 years where men wouldn't stop pestering me. By this point, I had contact lenses, clear skin, and straight teeth. I also had a great figure and long, straight, glossy hair. Men would randomly ask me out in the street and pass me their phone number on the bus. On my first day in a new job, a male colleague said, "that's a nice dress but it would look better on my bedroom floor" in front in front of the entire office. Workmen would whistle at me, men in bars would offer to buy me drinks. On one occasion I even received a love letter from my boyfriend's housemate. I used to go out clubbing regularly because I loved to dance, but I'd always get men rubbing up against me on the dancefloor. As a musician, practically every single male I worked with tried it on with me. I was even hit on by an on-duty policeman who came to take my statement after I was mugged.

I'm now 43, 6 stone heavier, and utterly invisible. This suits me fine (the invisibility, not the weight gain) because I no longer get unwanted attention yet I'm married to a man who loves me unconditionally and is extremely attracted to me. Strangely enough, I have a lot more female friends now too, whereas I got the impression before that some women felt threatened by me .

I can relate. I used to resent the fact I was unattractive, but now I believe that it's protected me from a lot of BS and I wouldn't have wanted it any other way. The shallow men never bothered with me, or they actively bullied me. It weeded out those tossers right quick (who presumably went on to have relationships and children with other, prettier women. I wonder how that's going). I couldn't rely on my looks to get me anywhere, I had to develop other skills.

Not denying that sexual harassment is about power, but I haven't experienced it to the same levels as more attractive friends. Makes me feel like we are living on different planets. I don't doubt it happens to them, it just doesn't happen to me. I'm really grateful for it.

I have curly hair and wear it naturally. It's like an Instant Prick Shield. On days when I straighten my hair (very rarely as I can't be bothered) I notice how differently I'm treated by men. And it makes me laugh. The poor lambs.

I always remember what Zadie Smith she said to her daughter. It was something like, you can choose to spend an hour a day in front of the mirror if you want. But your brother was out of the house and hour ago, and so now he's already an hour ahead of you. She imposed a 15 minute mirror rule.

A slightly different take. I was very much the ugly duckling - I'm not naturally "pretty" and I had neither the money nor know how to make the most of myself when younger, I was overweight and I don't remember ever getting attention positive or otherwise from men. I married my first BF (who was lovely). As I got older and more money I learned better how to make the best of myself. I lost weight, got into exercise. I got braces to sort my wonky teeth. Following break-down of marriage and with my new teeth and slim figure on dating scene in my 30s I was surprised how much more attention I now got - better hair, make-up, clothes and confidence. I had a nose job and some other work done. I'm now unrecognisable from my late teens/mid 20s. Age 38 I look the best I've ever done and friends same age often say how jealous they are. I work out, look after myself and dress and make-up well. I'm conscious this has a different tone but hope others appreciate my perspective. I wasn't "unhappy" - I was confident in myself and I don't "need" others flattery. BUT being more attractive is like a currency. I think I've earnt more, had better opportunities and certainly attracted a better calibre of man as a result.

Ehhh... I don't think Claudia Winkleman qualifies as unattractive.
agreed! like wtf Claudia is easily above average attractiveness

I think that’s why some pp’s, who likely mean well, still think it’s all about self confidence… they’re forgetting about objectively unattractive people. 🤷‍♀️

@Jakarta

Ehhh... I don't think Claudia Winkleman qualifies as unattractive. agreed! like wtf Claudia is easily above average attractiveness

I think that’s why some pp’s, who likely mean well, still think it’s all about self confidence… they’re forgetting about objectively unattractive people. 🤷‍♀️

I didn't say she did, and I doubt she would think so, truthfully, if you asked her. That wasn't the point of what I posted (or of what she said).

I’m small and fairly ordinary but have quite regular features so can make myself look pleasant. Generally this has worked in my favour in that I’ve not had much harassment but I’ve also never felt too down my looks.

I have been on both sides, v v plain as a teenager and v beautiful as a young adult
It never really changed my opinion of myself , I always thought I was fine and that meant other people did too and treated me as such. I was asked out and I didn't realize I was "ugly" until I over heard family members discussing it. I can look back and photos now and objectively understand I was but never felt that way about myself
A lot of "attractiveness" is the vibe you give off

"This made me think of a recent interview with Claudia Winkleman where she talks about her upbringing: 'I learned that what you look like is the least interesting thing about you'."

I feel like this is the kind of thing attractive people say unthinkingly, in the same way rich people can say "poor people are just OBSESSED with money, you know?"

It's easy to not care about something you have an abundance of.

@IntermittentParps Apologies, I realise I took the Claudia Winkleman mention out of context, (saw OP’s post about it) I didn’t actually read your post until now and understand you were talking about a quote of hers. My bad!

I do like the quote actually, if only more felt like this but just from my own experiences I still think it’s wishful thinking. In practice, many people (men more likely) continue to judge and treat someone according to their appearance.

I don’t mean to say this in a “woe is me” way, in fact I think some people don’t even realise they do it

I'm unattractive. It's not so bad now I'm heading towards 50 as middle-aged invisibility is a blessing for me.

When I was younger, it was common for strangers (men) to call out 'you're ugly' across the street, or, if in a pub, they'd loudly tease each other along the lines of 'that's your girlfriend sitting over there' etc.

I've never experienced unwanted attention in the sense of being asked out, flirted with, wolf-whistled etc.

I still have a sense of dread if I have to pass a group of men in the street, although as mentioned I think I have now become invisible.

I've been fat and thin in my adult life - ranging from weighing less than 8 stone to nearly 15 stone - if anything the insults were worse when I was thin, possibly because men clocked I had a decent figure and then were disappointed that I dared to top this with an ugly face.

I've often been enraged by all this 'beauty comes from within' lark. It's only a matter of time before someone posts Roald Dahl's awful quote about lovely people having lovely faces. It's bollocks however you take it. Either I have an ugly face because I am a horrible person (I'd like to think not) or it's meaningless - a bunch of marauding men aren't not going to insult you if you are objectively unattractive, just because you might have a decent personality.

I agree with what pp said about advice to find another man if your relationship isn't working out. I have had three LTRs (including my marriage) in about 30 years. I've never been in a position where I could just go out and find a man, because most wouldn't be seen dead with me. I've been lucky to find a few men who are as unattractive (conventionally) as I am and who valued my personality.

In short, it's shit being ugly - the only bonus is that you have no looks to lose as you get older and you are used to not being able to use your looks as a way of getting on in life.

My point was that Claudia Winkleman does not have the actual experience of being unattractive. And her quote, despite clearly having good intentions behind it, is a bit 'let them eat cake' ish.

Things are certainly easier now I am older, have become invisible. Really is amazing, although I did get leered at by some elderly male golf players when running, almost comical. Was a lanky, spotty, ginger haired swot. Made to feel less than human from boys and some girls at school. Cat-called, pointed out in the street and laughed at, shouted at, followed home, inappropriately touched at school. Mocked by teachers, looks mocked by own mother. Never complimented except by older people for hair. Grew quite defensive, built a protective attack as first line of defence shell which didn’t help. Never asked out, probably looks and fact I was quite cutting. Amazed when left for university that got male attention, mainly for figure, clearly face was an issue. Struggled at work as I didn’t flirt (what would be the point even if I knew how?). Am with a kind DH, have been since university. He says I am beautiful. I know he loves me but I don’t believe him as I recall how he described me when we first met, not pretty while his first girlfriend made everyone stop to watch her in a room. Honestly, I could cry for the poor angry sad girl I was. I still hate how I look. Absolutely hate it but try not to think about it and generally I get no comments as I am clearly too old to be considered slaggable.

[quote Jakarta]@IntermittentParps Apologies, I realise I took the Claudia Winkleman mention out of context, (saw OP’s post about it) I didn’t actually read your post until now and understand you were talking about a quote of hers. My bad!

I do like the quote actually, if only more felt like this but just from my own experiences I still think it’s wishful thinking. In practice, many people (men more likely) continue to judge and treat someone according to their appearance.

I don’t mean to say this in a “woe is me” way, in fact I think some people don’t even realise they do it[/quote]
I don't disagree people (some people) treat those who are attractive and those who are not differently.
At the same time, I don't think it's that simple. Attractiveness is at least somewhat objective.

The Claudia Winkleman quote is interesting to me not so much as part of a discussion about 'is she or is she not attractive and therefore privileged' (which is what StormTreader is talking about, I think); it seems to me to be saying that in a way it IS about self-confidence; if you meet the world sure of your worth in every way, your looks won't matter so much to you yourself. And maybe I'm too optimistic/naive, but I do think the way an individual feels about themselves often rubs off on/transfers to the people they encounter.
Also, if an individual thinks what they look like is the least interesting thing about them, perhaps they're more inclined to extend that attitude and approach to others too.

It's easy to not care about something you have an abundance of.
Great point @StormTreader

Rich people will have unique problems (not being able to trust people, jealousy, excess money not buying happiness etc)
I’m sure there was an academic study I once read about which mentioned money does buy happiness to an extent - once you’re past a certain level it doesn’t bring any more happiness. Hence, why rich people are always coming out with quotes explaining why money isn’t important but they’re still ignorant to the fact that it’s objectively better than being at the very bottom.

I wonder if attractiveness is similar (I have no evidence to make such a claim) but from my own bias experiences I would be inclined to guess so.

With most things I think being ‘average’ or above average is probably best.

@Iamnotattractive

My point was that Claudia Winkleman does not have the actual experience of being unattractive. And her quote, despite clearly having good intentions behind it, is a bit 'let them eat cake' ish.

I think that's a bit unfair.

For starters, I should imagine there are plenty of people who do think her unattractive (people here on MN are quite disparaging about her sometimes!). It's not especially meaningful to ascribe a level of attractiveness and then criticise people you personally consider to be above it. It's a bit of a straw man.

Then, I don't know if she does or does not have any actual experience of being unattractive. For all I know she was 'ugly' at school or at some point in her life and was bullied/ostracised for it.

Last, if only people who have actual experience of something may speak about it or act for/against it, God help us all!

I wouldn’t say I’m necessarily unattractive but I am fat! So that makes me unattractive, I never get any bother from men at all when I’m out

I still have a sense of dread if I have to pass a group of men in the street, although as mentioned I think I have now become invisible.
Yes. I did not realise it was such a common experience, but almost every second person on this thread had mentioned similar. I thought I am uniquely unlucky in this respect.
Every time I pass by a pub I prepare inside that someone will shout something at me. Yes, along the "hey fat cunt, here's your boyfriend" lines, and I am not obese - size 12.