Self identifying as black or white

[MontEthna]

Please hear me out.

I have two dcs, both dual citizens who have lived in the UK all their lives. When the census came, there was no way to put two citizenship on the form so I asked them what they wanted me to put. One said british, the other his other citizenship. So they clearly self identified/realted more as as having different citizenship iyswim.

I also have a cousin who mixed race. Her mum (my aunt) is white but her dad is black. But she has never had the opportunity to actually chose which race she is (the way my dcs could chose their main citizenship). She has always been considered black. That's despite the fact she has never lived in her dad's country/africa and was actually raised by another white aunt (having become an orphan). She doesn't relate to 'black culture'. The only way she feels 'different' culture wise is her hair - because she struggles to find a hairdresser who nows how to deal with it.

So my question is: why are people not able to chose which race they are? What if someone who is mixed race feels more like being white than being black (insert any other race there, it doesn't really matter)?

I think with race it should be based on how you look rather than what you identify with. If you pass for white and get all the associated benefits of that then there’s no way you would be able to identify as anything else.

For example I am Romany and Indian. I look Indian, I even have brown skin. My sister is also Romany and Indian but passes for white. We had massively different life experiences - she didn’t experience racism, never had to worry about unachievable beauty standards (I have type 3 hair), never had to worry about race on top of the discrimination that women get.

Isn't there usually an option for 'mixed race' on forms these days?

It's not really the same as citizenship which is much more administrative, you either have the paperwork in place to be a British, French, Indian etc citizen (or the entitlement thereof) or you don't. It's not very accurate, I suppose, if there isnt the dual citizenship option, but you couldn't just identify as a citizen of another country for official purposes, even if you had spent a lot of time there, spoke the language, had family from there (unless this conferred right of abode or equivalent).

I don't have the answers regarding race, but wouldn't conflate the two.

Race and culture don’t come as a package deal

There’s a difference between your identity (how you see yourself) and your ethnicity. Your cousin may not relate to black culture, and that’s fine, but she can’t pretend she doesn’t have African ethnic heritage and if she is visibly part-black then it may affect how other people relate to her. In fact it probably will at times.

I’m sure she’s a British national so she has no need to mention any other nationality if she’s asked for her nationality. But if she’s asked for her ethnic origin then the answer to that is factual, not about her feelings. If she’s asked about her cultural identity then clearly the answer is British, maybe white British, or she can go further and mention a particular part of the U.K. if she feels strongly aligned with the culture of that place, for example Yorkshire or Scotland.

But that's more complex than that isn't it?

My cousin would pass as white in the south of france where many white people have darker skin colour (mediteranean type) but wouldn't in the north of england. She now lives overseas in a multi cultural place, many different races mixed together and she is considered white.....

On the other side, you have black women in the US with 'lighter' skin tone (could pass as white) who are ver vocal that they are black. The usually comment is that they relate to the black culture. Same with comments of cultural appropriation etc....

So somehow these are people who 'chose' they identify as ne race or the other, or maybe more to one culture than the other (just like my own dcs do)

Sorry xpost with many people...

Can’t you? DS says he is English - not on either side, mate (and that’s nationality and race).

why are people not able to chose which race they are? What if someone who is mixed race feels more like being white than being black

Humans don't have races. It's a completely made up idea. It's just as valid to describe her as white (I know a similar family who make the same point).

The problem is that racists are real and their silly beliefs are generally based on skin colour. So while your cousin certainly doesn't have to identify with any race she may, sadly, be treated as if she is black.

I suppose my DD could, she's white passing "quarter" black and the rest white, I cant imagine her identifying as black so either mixed or white.

DS is newborn but looks like he will be more brown than DD so possibly he will be seen as a Black Man when he grows up, doesn't matter what he puts in a form if that's what people see when look at him.

and if she is visibly part-black then it may affect how other people relate to her.

so what we are saying is that if you sort of look black (or asian, chinese whatever), even if that relationship is tenuous then that's what you are??

I'm thinking about yet another person who could easily have she was mixed race with some chinese origin (eyes in particular). There was no one in the family with that sort of heritage. Does it mean she was still supposed to class as 'mixed race'?

And the other way around, there was a story a few years back about a baby born from two black parents but was white. No white familky member again as far as parents knew. (paternity test done and OK!). For all intend and purposes, surely that child is black??

@olderthanyouthink, what do you tick on the forms for her race then?

Mixed - white British and black British/Caribbean

For medical things they're probably better off using black Caribbean because no one can tell me at what point the risk for certain diseases and cancers "wears off"

Random but there's a modelling agency for brown kids (poor description but you get the idea) and I would feel like fraud signing her up there because she looks Mediterranean-ish but as a family group I wouldn't mind

so what we are saying is that if you sort of look black (or asian, chinese whatever), even if that relationship is tenuous then that's what you are?

Yes, that is precisely what racists say. They are not right but it's amazing how much their language and ideas infect the way we talk about ethnicity.

Don't buy what the racists are selling. Your skin colour is not who you are. Race is not real.

This is all quite goady.

@Bimblybomeyelash

This is all quite goady.

Wat do you mean?

so what we are saying is that if you sort of look black (or asian, chinese whatever), even if that relationship is tenuous then that's what you are?

No, that’s not what I’m saying at all. The reason many people over the years who have one white parent and one black parent see themselves more as black than as mixed or half-white/half-black, is because that’s how other people see them and relate to them. This is more so in the past, 80s and 90s, than today, but I don’t think it’s gone away completely.

Before people get to know you, they see you, and human beings being human beings, they instantly make judgments about you. If your cousin was visibly part-black and was with a white junior colleague, you’d be surprised how often an unknown other person, especially if white (but not necessarily) would assume that the black person was the assistant and the white person the boss. Your cousin’s feelings or sense of identity would not be relevant, so I’m saying that if you look black there are some things associated with being black that you can’t run away from.

I don't get why people say that race is not real. The fact that I am Jewish is very relevant to my medical history, as there are certain conditions that are far more prevalent among Ashkenazi Jews than among the general population.

@Bimblybomeyelash

This is all quite goady.

It's always a first post too, isn't it?

@charlestonchaplin

so what we are saying is that if you sort of look black (or asian, chinese whatever), even if that relationship is tenuous then that's what you are?

No, that’s not what I’m saying at all. The reason many people over the years who have one white parent and one black parent see themselves more as black than as mixed or half-white/half-black, is because that’s how other people see them and relate to them. This is more so in the past, 80s and 90s, than today, but I don’t think it’s gone away completely.

Before people get to know you, they see you, and human beings being human beings, they instantly make judgments about you. If your cousin was visibly part-black and was with a white junior colleague, you’d be surprised how often an unknown other person, especially if white (but not necessarily) would assume that the black person was the assistant and the white person the boss. Your cousin’s feelings or sense of identity would not be relevant, so I’m saying that if you look black there are some things associated with being black that you can’t run away from.

I think this primarily stems from the one drop rule in the antebellum period, where even if you were 1/64 black and blond with blue eyes, your documents would determine you as being black. One drop of black blood was enough to not have the privileges white people had/have.

I don't get why people say that race is not real. The fact that I am Jewish is very relevant to my medical history, as there are certain conditions that are far more prevalent among Ashkenazi Jews than among the general population.

Not entirely sure but I think possibly they mean that people can’t always be easily and definitively divided into groups like black and white. That those terms are too simplistic in many cases and don’t really reflect people’s ethnic origin.

Wat do you mean? Recently there was a request for a black MNers board, it now ewxists.

The reasons for requesting it were many but one was so that there was a place in MN that such things could be discussed with no 'edge'.

Now, anything posted outside that area is seen as supsicious, goady - maybe rightly so, I don't know.

But you could ask over there too, see if the responses are any different. be sure to start by acknowledging you have already posted in AIBU - which is the very worst space you could have chosen!

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/black_mumsnetters

If someone with a penis can self identify as female I don't see why someone with white skin cannot self identify as black. I think both are wrong, but one group should not get special "self-identifying" credentials if another does not.

I think it can be a double edged sword for mixed race people. I have a very close friend who grew up in Ireland with one Irish and one Middle Eastern parent.

When she's here, she's seen as Middle Eastern (and gets the associated racist treatment). When she's in the ME, they pick up on her whiteness and she gets treated as white. She talks sometimes about how it feels to not fully pass with either.

Obviously that's just one person's experience so take it as the anecdote that it is.

Your kids can change / choose their citizenship (of course all legal caveats being met) but they can't choose their ethnicity nor can you change your ethnicity - but race is all rather a construct and I suppose depends on how others perceive you.

@DumplingsAndStew yes because I change my user name extremely regularly and always when I start a thread myself.

Isn’t that basic to protect anonymity?