Self identifying as black or white

[MontEthna]

Please hear me out.

I have two dcs, both dual citizens who have lived in the UK all their lives. When the census came, there was no way to put two citizenship on the form so I asked them what they wanted me to put. One said british, the other his other citizenship. So they clearly self identified/realted more as as having different citizenship iyswim.

I also have a cousin who mixed race. Her mum (my aunt) is white but her dad is black. But she has never had the opportunity to actually chose which race she is (the way my dcs could chose their main citizenship). She has always been considered black. That's despite the fact she has never lived in her dad's country/africa and was actually raised by another white aunt (having become an orphan). She doesn't relate to 'black culture'. The only way she feels 'different' culture wise is her hair - because she struggles to find a hairdresser who nows how to deal with it.

So my question is: why are people not able to chose which race they are? What if someone who is mixed race feels more like being white than being black (insert any other race there, it doesn't really matter)?

@Snoken, yes it feels like that.
One drop is enough to put you in that category, whether you like or not.

[quote CuriousaboutSamphire]Wat do you mean? Recently there was a request for a black MNers board, it now ewxists.

The reasons for requesting it were many but one was so that there was a place in MN that such things could be discussed with no 'edge'.

Now, anything posted outside that area is seen as supsicious, goady - maybe rightly so, I don't know.

But you could ask over there too, see if the responses are any different. be sure to start by acknowledging you have already posted in AIBU - which is the very worst space you could have chosen!

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/black_mumsnetters[/quote]
That’s a good idea actually!

You're friend shouldn't be identifying as black or white: she's mixed!! she's both!

@SionnachRua, my dcs feel the same with their two citizenships. They are seen as ‘not British’ here but as ‘Obviously British’ in my home country.
So I’m not surprised about your friend.

@VladmirsPoutine, it’s not an issue with citizenship, which can change. It’s an issue with culture which is why I was mentioning them.
There is a culture associated with where you are coming from (country) just like there is a culture associated with your race (eg black culture). I’d say that is something that never changes either.

@grey12

You're friend shouldn't be identifying as black or white: she's mixed!! she's both!

If I understand well, there are many people who are mixed race but see themselves as being black. Not mixed but black. (Unless this is something specific to the US?)

If that is the case, why couldn’t she see herself as white?

Jim Crow really did a number.
Race should be based on genetics, not what you look like but we've agreed to let racists win. So why not? Best to "self-identify" based on how they see us and not what we really are? That's what he wanted.

A monoracial mum + a monoracial dad = mixed race child.
Simple but oh well, why bother?

*Jim Crow laws...
*they really wanted...

They know they’re mixed. They just feel that their everyday life, in terms of how they’re perceived and treated by others, including public officials, is more reflective of the lives of black people.

If I understand well, there are many people who are mixed race but see themselves as being black. Not mixed but black.

That's true. IIRC Lewis Hamilton identifies as Black despite being half white. Similarly to my parents.

Yea that in itself is offensive.
You don't become "black" because you're suffering.

Black isn't synonymous with oppression. Black people and Mixed race people (and other POC) happen to face oppression but facing oppression isnt what makes you Black.

That idea in itself is racist.

That was to charlestonchaplin's post.

@Yousexybugger

Isn't there usually an option for 'mixed race' on forms these days?

It's not really the same as citizenship which is much more administrative, you either have the paperwork in place to be a British, French, Indian etc citizen (or the entitlement thereof) or you don't. It's not very accurate, I suppose, if there isnt the dual citizenship option, but you couldn't just identify as a citizen of another country for official purposes, even if you had spent a lot of time there, spoke the language, had family from there (unless this conferred right of abode or equivalent).

I don't have the answers regarding race, but wouldn't conflate the two.

This.

I think it’s very easy to blame racists, OneDrop, but in reality hardly anyone has no prejudices at all and it is more honest to try to scrutinise ourselves for those prejudices and deal with them.

People can identify however they like but when a person is obviously part-black, to insist that they’re white looks like a desperate case of self-delusion.

@Dilbertian

I don't get why people say that race is not real. The fact that I am Jewish is very relevant to my medical history, as there are certain conditions that are far more prevalent among Ashkenazi Jews than among the general population.

Doesn't this just further illustrate the confusion? Jewish isn't a race to most of us, surely? It's an identity or an ethnicity perhaps, and sometimes a religion. But you can be Mizrahi or Sephardi Jewish and black, or Ashkenazi Jewish and white... or of course mixed-race and Jewish... I am very confused now. Lately there seems to be a trend to suggest that anyone not Anglo-Saxon is not white. I think OP has a point, that none of this makes any sense (thereby proving, I guess, that race is a myth even if skin colour and therefore racism are real).

@MontEthna When the census came, there was no way to put two citizenship on the form so I asked them what they wanted me to put. One said british, the other his other citizenship. So they clearly self identified/realted more as as having different citizenship iyswim.

If they have dual citizenship but live in Britain then I’d class them as British. I am mixed race (half white half East Asian) and there are tick boxes on forms for mixed race people too. I am British (citizenship) but mixed race (ethnicity). Two different things.

People can identify however they like but when a person is obviously part-black, to insist that they’re white looks like a desperate case of self-delusion.

Yes that's the point. Same as the opposite. What do you think then to insist that they are Black when they're also part white?

They're both, not just one.

@MontEthna

But that's more complex than that isn't it?

My cousin would pass as white in the south of france where many white people have darker skin colour (mediteranean type) but wouldn't in the north of england. She now lives overseas in a multi cultural place, many different races mixed together and she is considered white.....

On the other side, you have black women in the US with 'lighter' skin tone (could pass as white) who are ver vocal that they are black. The usually comment is that they relate to the black culture. Same with comments of cultural appropriation etc....

So somehow these are people who 'chose' they identify as ne race or the other, or maybe more to one culture than the other (just like my own dcs do)

Which light skinned black women can pass as white OP? You have jumped from light skinned to a person passing as completely white.

I think it may be your own judgement that is poor here. Even people with one white parent and a mixed race parent.... you can see tell usually they are not FULL WHITE.

@Dilbertian

I don't get why people say that race is not real. The fact that I am Jewish is very relevant to my medical history, as there are certain conditions that are far more prevalent among Ashkenazi Jews than among the general population.

It's not the fact that you are Jewish, though, is it, medically speaking, that makes a difference? We all of us have things that we are more likely to get because of our origins, be it sickle cell anemia, or a Dupuytren's contracture. It's your origins that make a difference, but it doesn't mean that race exists.

Yea that in itself is offensive.
You don't become "black" because you're suffering.

Black isn't synonymous with oppression. Black people and Mixed race people (and other POC) happen to face oppression but facing oppression isnt what makes you Black.

That idea in itself is racist.

I’m not going to police whether a person of mixed ethnic heritage feels more black or white culturally. Their feelings are their feelings but their ethnic heritage isn’t about their feelings. That’s a factual matter. And yes, black and white are broad-brush, simplistic terms but they’ll do for now.

@VladmirsPoutine

If I understand well, there are many people who are mixed race but see themselves as being black. Not mixed but black.

That's true. IIRC Lewis Hamilton identifies as Black despite being half white. Similarly to my parents.

Because the world treats them as black? If you are American, then it is the "one drop" thing, and to reclaim that idea as a source of pride.

There are aspects of "white culture" or "black culture" that someone will identify with more or less depending on their upbringing. But I do find that someone saying that they identify as one when they are 2 races is ignoring part of their life/family.

I was watching a YouTube of someone saying they wanted to identify as asian (specific country their parents were from) but lived in the US all their life. Their life is different from those people who were raised in said country, but they have experiences that reflect that heritage. They are both asian and american! Not one but two things

I'm sure it can be challenging. As humans we want to belong to a group

@TheOneDropRuleIsRacist

People can identify however they like but when a person is obviously part-black, to insist that they’re white looks like a desperate case of self-delusion.

Yes that's the point. Same as the opposite. What do you think then to insist that they are Black when they're also part white?

They're both, not just one.

You may be light skinned though and this is common.

Denying you are not black and you are white is far different altogether. Its not just skin tone. It's your facial features and your hair texture that indicated race if you don't know a person.

I think it's interesting that one of your kids doesn't identify as British. I have dual nationality as do all my family, two of my BBa have dual citizenship (one with both parents from a different country) we have all lived in Britain our whole lives so I don't see how we can describe ourselves as anything other than British. Why does your child identify as another nationality? Have they ever actually lived there?

People can identify however they like but when a person is obviously part-black, to insist that they’re white looks like a desperate case of self-delusion

But you just wrote this. @charlestomchaplin. Why is it self-delusion on one side but not on the other side? Why have you policed who can claim to be White but not Black? You avoided that question.

Anyway, don't worry, I know the thought-police are around so we can't really say what we're thinking, even when it's simple. Don't want to put you on the spot here so you can ignore the question.

I agree about factual ethnic heritage.

Agree @grey12