Self identifying as black or white

[MontEthna]

Please hear me out.

I have two dcs, both dual citizens who have lived in the UK all their lives. When the census came, there was no way to put two citizenship on the form so I asked them what they wanted me to put. One said british, the other his other citizenship. So they clearly self identified/realted more as as having different citizenship iyswim.

I also have a cousin who mixed race. Her mum (my aunt) is white but her dad is black. But she has never had the opportunity to actually chose which race she is (the way my dcs could chose their main citizenship). She has always been considered black. That's despite the fact she has never lived in her dad's country/africa and was actually raised by another white aunt (having become an orphan). She doesn't relate to 'black culture'. The only way she feels 'different' culture wise is her hair - because she struggles to find a hairdresser who nows how to deal with it.

So my question is: why are people not able to chose which race they are? What if someone who is mixed race feels more like being white than being black (insert any other race there, it doesn't really matter)?

No, that’s not what it says. You are mistaking the historical section for current thought.

I quoted the conclusion of the historical summary section.

The article is not racist...you are misrepresenting it.

I don't agree. I think it's misrepresenting data to make a completely false argument in support of race theory which might be accepted by someone without qualifications in this area. The genetic differences it uses to classify 'race' are small compared to the background levels of genetic diversity in humans.

There is a reason sensible people get their info about scientific arguments from peer reviewed articles and reputable sources.

It doesn’t say that races are subspecies except earlier in historical context when early 18th c. scientists thought they were subspecies.

It explicitly states that the (not at all Scientific) old subspecies classifications are in use by Scientist but have been renamed due to a conspiracy to hide 'the truth':

The world’s most powerful forces have spent the last 7 decades attempting to brainwash the masses into believing race is an aberration — an “ideology” or “social construct” — fabricated by “European imperialists” during the 19th Century, specifically to justify “the oppression, persecution, and exploitation of People of Color.”

Plus, there is no way I could have raised them BRITISH because I’m not BRITISH. I’m going to assume that it’s quite hard to raise a child to ‘be white’ if you are not white yourself….

I wasn't British until my oldest was 16, but all my children identify as British and will correct you if you try to infer the xenophobic idea that one of their parents being an immigrant means they are less British.

I found it a lot easier to expose and help my children explore British ideas and social norms because it's all around us compared and really, many of them aren't really solely British compared to trying to teach my children the cultures I was raised with since it was just me.

That's the thing - culture isn't an individual static thing from our DNA. It's a social thing with the people and environments around us. Cultures change through the variations in how people pass them and interact with them - that's how they live. Most of them have some overlap. Like many things immigrants bring in - they can then become part of British cultures no matter what DNA was involved. Even before their British-born father and I were engaged, we discussed creating a unified home culture and how to deal with the clash that would arise just as much from him not wanting to pass down what he was raised with as bringing mine in - we're all part of the dialogue in cultural change.

I'm mixed. My parents are mixed. None of us are fractions - that's blood quantum talk which I'm strongly against. I don't teach my children to deal with people acting xenophobic by cutting themselves into parts to explain why they don't look or sound or do things differently than some others expect British kids to do. I'd rather support my mixed children pushing at the boundaries of what it means to British. For my oldest who identifies as white, I support him in pushing at what it means to be white - that it isn't about being "pure" anything. I know people who look similar to him pushing against that in other directions. It's considered really important for technically Metis and Mestizo people to be able to confidently identify with our American Indigenous nations if we so chose. I think it would be hypocritical of me not to extend that same concept to a technically Metis and Mestizo person as my children are to confidently identify as White or British. They're part of a very long history of mixed people moving around racial lines. People have been raising children to be part of the dominate groups well before our modern races were used to culturally divide people.

@donquixotedelamancha
The genetic differences it uses to classify 'race' are small compared to the background levels of genetic diversity in humans.

? There is very little genetic diversity in humans as a whole, we haven’t be living isolated from each other for very long evolutionary speaking and the constant migrations over prehistory and history have kept the diversity low across all humans

What it shows is the various genetic clusters you find within and between races. It literally explained that every race is simply a different admixture of common ancestral genetics...remember the example of the Maya individual being most Amerindian genetic ancestry clusters but also have European, African, and E Asian mixed in? Then it showed quite well, I think, that race is a spectrum of overlapping and shared ancestral genetic clusters so that the diversity within each race is higher than the diversity between the races (all true) because there is so much overlap in genetic clusters.

It explicitly states that the (not at all Scientific) old subspecies classifications are in use by Scientist but have been renamed due to a conspiracy to hide 'the truth':

“The world’s most powerful forces have spent the last 7 decades attempting to brainwash the masses into believing race is an aberration — an “ideology” or “social construct” — fabricated by “European imperialists” during the 19th Century, specifically to justify “the oppression, persecution, and exploitation of People of Color.”

? You say the article explicitly states that subspecies classifications...etc but then quote a quote that doesn’t say subspecies? Races are not subspecies. Why are you conflating the two?

You can't choose your biological heritage (your ancestry) but, if you are mixed heritage, you can choose the part with which you most identify.

The article that Plan quoted uses language that is perhaps too emphatic. But the concepts do make sense.

What we don't need is history to repeat itself with Galileos being censored and shouted down because they commit the crime of stating what they see.

Personally I don't know what's controversial about the existence of races, ethnicities or populations, whatever one wants to call them. It's what we decide to do with that fact that may be wrong (e.g. discriminate someone based on race).

I feel for all the scientists who since the 17th century have devoted their lives to research only for us to be told now that race is a 'social construct' because it does not suit a particular narrative

Ethnicity is mixed in this case but they can choose the culture they identify with more

I don't agree with white people identifying as black, it's the epitome of white privilege. Black people can't 'pretend ' to appear white.

The article that Plan quoted uses language that is perhaps too emphatic

I agree, the historical summary is absolutely biased and a bit over emotional. But I largely skipped that to get to the good stuff...the genetic clusters and how the different admixtures combine to result in the different ethnicities across the globe. Didn’t really care how they saw history of race as we know it was in fact full of racism and racist theories.

Not sure of point beyond self congratulations for asking your dc what they wanted to declare.

I was thinking about this the other day. In a society where it is OK to identify as a different gender to that of your physical body, where politicians are effectively saying we are no longer females but bodies with vaginas in order not to upset the trans community it would be very different if this was about race. If a white person felt they identified as black I highly doubt that would be accepted, people would treat them as if they were racist and taking the piss. In reality you are who you are based on birth and genetics. You can identify how you choose, it does not change who you are.

I am white and Irish and grew up in a time when everyone around me was white so i can't begin to understand the issue, but i do find it very interesting. When i was reading Barack Obama's book i thought it was fascinating that despite being half white, and being brought up in a white area in a white family, everyone just saw his black half, so to speak. It was assumed that he would identify with his black heritage, and represent black people in politics, despite his white background.

[quote PlanDeRaccordement]I thought this was interesting as it illustrates using genetic clusters the biological existence of races. Which is the opposite of what many posters are arguing? That if you look at DNA/genetics there are no races?

thuletide.wordpress.com/2020/06/29/a-race-by-race-breakdown-of-human-genetic-diversity-illustrated-guide-for-novices/[/quote]
Have you seen the other articles on 'Thuletide'?:

E.g.:

Operation Lockstep: 2010 Rockefeller Foundation paper perfectly "predicts" the COVID scamdemic [Full text]

Timeline of the New World Order

COVID19, The Great Reset, and Transhumanism

The World League for Sexual Reform: Pioneers in abortion, birth control, and transgenderism

An article claiming that 'Chemical birth control destroys women's bodies and the environment'

As such, I don't think anything on the site can be trusted!

Have you seen the other articles on 'Thuletide'?

The blogger is just commenting on work by Harvard University plus a study published in Nature.

In 2014, Harvard University’s Reich Lab published one of the largest genetic cluster analyses to date, featuring (almost) the entire human race. The analysis is an incredibly useful resource; it conclusively demonstrates the biological existence of human races, and provides an excellent overview of human genetic diversity

@ddl1
No haven’t seen thuletide before. But I did read the study that the blogger referenced and looked up where he/she got the cluster data from and it is faithfully replicated. I find that no source can be completely trusted or not trusted (been let down too many times) so I tend to take each article on its own merits. Same with MN posters tbf. Sometimes I think a poster is bat shit on one thread, but on another they are the voice of reason. We all have our strengths and bias weaknesses.

So my question is: why are people not able to choose which race they are? What if someone who is mixed race feels more like being white than being Black

As far as I understand it, race is a social construct, designed to organise hierarchically, and according to power structures.

Put simply, white at that top, Black at the bottom, and the various shades in between, with associated levels of power. White has always been exclusionary. Such is the power of the conditioning, I've never heard of a person with visibly darker skin than pale being described as white. I've seen and heard of many mixed race people being accepted into Black communities.

I know of one mixed race family where the Black dad left the white mum when the DC were toddlers. The DD is white passing, hates anything to do with anything Black or related, and refers to herself as white. The DS is closer in skin tone to his DF, and calls himself Black. That's just one example, but most likely based on what others project onto them, rather than what they actually are (they have the same parents).

So to sum up, to me, the answer to your query is not about the individuals themselves, but about the wider societal view of race, which can be more complex, depending on where you are, and your history (e.g. people with both white and Black heritage will have extremely different experiences in the US, UK and South Africa).