Self identifying as black or white

[MontEthna]

Please hear me out.

I have two dcs, both dual citizens who have lived in the UK all their lives. When the census came, there was no way to put two citizenship on the form so I asked them what they wanted me to put. One said british, the other his other citizenship. So they clearly self identified/realted more as as having different citizenship iyswim.

I also have a cousin who mixed race. Her mum (my aunt) is white but her dad is black. But she has never had the opportunity to actually chose which race she is (the way my dcs could chose their main citizenship). She has always been considered black. That's despite the fact she has never lived in her dad's country/africa and was actually raised by another white aunt (having become an orphan). She doesn't relate to 'black culture'. The only way she feels 'different' culture wise is her hair - because she struggles to find a hairdresser who nows how to deal with it.

So my question is: why are people not able to chose which race they are? What if someone who is mixed race feels more like being white than being black (insert any other race there, it doesn't really matter)?

[quote VladmirsPoutine]@Iloveabourbon2 "black people" were the "worst ones"??? Are you ok? Some of us were arguing that the amount of aggressions she was facing in the media were just down right racist. Mumsnet alone was full of threads of people wondering what is is about her that they just don't like [/quote]
Are you saying black people were not the worst ones for saying MM looks white???

I heard many black folk saying it. MN is not real life so I won't base it upon that. However it made me sad that it was mainly black people saying she looked white.

This is why we have mixed race on forms for people with one white and one black parent I suppose whereas someone 100% white puts white and 100% black puts black.

However it depends on the context and the reason the data is being gathered.

I did encounter Black people expressing astonishment that she was getting so many racist digs about her colour given she is on the lighter end of a Black & White mix - in other words if she looks white (which she doesn't to me) then can you imagine if she'd had a darker complexion. This clearly came to pass because Meghan did allege that someone in the RF had expressed 'concern' about Archie's would-be complexion.

‘Race is a social construct

I don't think it's the case. If I went on to have medical treatment, and treatment was different depending on my race, I would expect doctors to know this and act on it appropriately (and I can think of at least two examples that would apply to me)

I assume everyone would expect something similar.

We don't want to live in a world where ideological narratives override reality.’

But treatment isn’t different based on race. It is different based on relevant population groups which have a geographical component far more nuanced than race.

Given that most of human genetic variability exists solely within the population of Africa, I’d be pretty unhappy if given healthcare on the basis that all Africans form one race.

The idea that races exist is the ideological narrative overriding reality.

And the people qualified to define material reality when it comes to biota are biologists. And they say race isn’t real in humans.

If we were going to start describing populations based on useful and materially real differences between people it would be more accurate to say there are around ten different genetic groups of Africans, and all The rest of the world are a subset of one of those groups.

But that doesn’t fit with the ideological ideas around which differences we see as important because of cultural differences.

@Twelveshoes

If we were going to start describing populations based on useful and materially real differences between people it would be more accurate to say there are around ten different genetic groups of Africans, and all The rest of the world are a subset of one of those groups.

But that doesn’t fit with the ideological ideas around which differences we see as important because of cultural differences.

Interesting, so which group of Africans would I fall under being Chinese ethnicity?

And they say race isn’t real in humans

Just trying to get my head around this. Which biologists/where do they say that race does not exist?

Perhaps it's a question of semantics? Could it be that race is too broad a term and it would be more appropriate to refer to clusters of genetic differences amongst 'subgroups'?

Differences will still exist though, e.g. the Amish will be different to the Palawah, etc?

@donquixotedelamancha

You can’t choose your race as this is based on biological aspects.

It really isn't. In Spain there are villages 20 miles apart which are more genetically different than two people you might pick from different continents.

Some phenotypes (like African features and sickle cell anemia) correlate but that's not race.

Broccoli, Cauliflower, sprouts and cabbages are races of cabbage- all the same species. A great dane and a sausage dog are the same race.

Physical differences and similarities do not mean that a group are necessarily genetically similar.

Sorry about this but I'm afraid I'm going to disagree with some of this.

A great dane and a sausage dog are in fact both biologically the same species: Canis lupus familiaris. They have been bred over many centuries to look different, but they are the same species.

Broccoli, cauliflower etc are all different varieties of cabbage within the brassica genus. The term 'race' isn't used in botany.

I thought this was interesting as it illustrates using genetic clusters the biological existence of races. Which is the opposite of what many posters are arguing? That if you look at DNA/genetics there are no races?

thuletide.wordpress.com/2020/06/29/a-race-by-race-breakdown-of-human-genetic-diversity-illustrated-guide-for-novices/

My maternal great grandmother was mixed race. The daughter of a black slave and her ‘master’ father. She was as white as could be (dark blond straight hair and freckles) but her siblings were all far darker traditionally black skinned. She was shunned by both communities within America but her white skin meant her father favoured her over his other children and he brought her to the UK where she thrived, settled and eventually died after a long life. I’d loved to have known her and asked her about her identity and understanding and feelings on the matter. I’m embarrassed by my ignorance beyond the basics of her life but my grandmother grew up in far more racist times and it was never really spoken about and considered a family shame. It breaks my heart knowing my great grandmother grew up knowing that and hiding entire elements of her heritage and life from her friends and UK family.

I don’t think it’s as simple as skin colour =
Identity when mixed race is at play but surely it’s
Down to the individual
And what suits them and their circumstances best?

I’d never lay claim to being black. I’m as pale as a ghost and it’s far too far down the genetic line but I will discuss my family heritage when it’s relevant.

I think the reason for that is that their peers have always highlighted that they are different - all down to the 'go back to your own country' in the middle fo brexit.

So even thugh they are briotish and feel british, its their non britishness that is highlighted and they ended up feeling more strongly related to.

OP you say this about your DC’s nationality, so surely you can see how it applies to race as well?

I’m white, my DP is black. The things which people comment on about our DC are mainly things which highlight their black features. Even complimenfs like “I love your curly wurly hair” (as another 4 year old told DD the other day) are pointing out how they’re different from the white majority.

Are you saying black people were not the worst ones for saying MM looks white???

I heard many black folk saying it. MN is not real life so I won't base it upon that. However it made me sad that it was mainly black people saying she looked white.

I don't know what being "the worst" means in this context...is it an insult to say she looks white? Why is it being the "the worst"?

Anyway, I think what Meghan and any biracial or mixed race person look like is subjective, isn't it? To some, she looks white, to some, she looks mixed race, and to others, you can't differentiate her from Michelle Obama. That's the thing with perception because it's from the person's point of view.

The "worse" thing would be/is how she's treated because of what they think she looks like.

@TheOneDropRuleIsRacist

IF you are from the black community you shouldn't be asking that question to be Frank YES it is an absolute insult for people to insult MM and try imply she is white. An absolute insult you can see her hair has been straightened and she goes to the hairdressers regularly.... her childhood pictures of her hair is more curly and afro looking. Also her mother is known in the public eye too try anybody coming with these comments is

What's subjective about it? Not in my book If you or any others think MM looks white perhaps you need to educate yourself culturally

My DS dad is very dark (West African). DS use to refer to me as "a bit different" meaning my skin tone.... as I'm a bit lighter than him in my mind we are very similar shades and I asked DS this too aren't we similar he said "no".

I have educated my child that we are BOTH black. However biological I am 3/4 black. He knows his nana is mixed race and his grandad is full black.

It wouldn't be acceptable of me as a parent to let my child think his nana is "white" because her skin tone is lighter than ours..

Your view isn't the only. You seem to think there's one way of being Black or Mixed race. I can assure you as a full black person, not 3/4 black, that there isn't.

If people are saying she's white when they know she is mixed race, then I can see what you're saying. But saying she looks white isn't the same as saying she is white. Also you seem to be saying what you can see only because you know her mum is Black. It will be obvious to "see" these things when you already know.

I don't see it as an insult. That's a very weird thing to say unless you're saying it was used to justify the treatment she got. Then that is bad. Otherwise it's your opinion and that's fine. But your opinion is not law.

I didn't look twice at Meghan when I first saw her on Suits and only "noticed" she wasn't white when they introduced her dad, Wendell Pierce. I'm not sure when you got to know her but I did long before her relationship with Harry. Doesn't make me less Black to think so and that is another odd thing to say. Quite offensive and really bizarre. You seem to have notions of Blackness that you may want to "re-educate" yourself on.

I don't know the Black people you were around though but I'd say it was divided what people saw her as. I think those who saw her as White or Black or Mixed would depend on where you go. Lipstick Alley was divided with both H&M unpopular opinions threads and Appreciation threads. So you'd see different opinions based on that.

As I've said, my husband is seen as white by some people in Nigeria but he's biracial. He looks mixed but I'm sure he'll be seen as Black by some people especially in the US. Don't think it's an insult however he's seen unless it's used to justify something bad.

Isn't the whole "I'm black, not mixed race" because of how others see you? Are you saying that everyone has to see you the same or doesn't it fit your narrative that not everyone will see you the way you want to be seen?

Most Black people I know in real life (including me) are just busy living their lives and not following what happens in the Royal family but one can definitely be forgiven to say that Meghan looks like a tan white woman if they didn't know at first she had a Black mum. It's no insult. How in the world can you expect everyone to "see her hair is straightened" and know "she goes to the hairdresser"? All these are things you know because you know about her. If you knew intuitively then, good for you.

Meghan herself says she's biracial or mixed race, not Black so you'd want to accept what she calls herself, if you're claiming to respect others' opinion.

www.elle.com/uk/life-and-culture/news/a26855/more-than-an-other/

She's also mentioned in another article i think that she knows she can look white or black or latina depending on styling so she's gone for auditions for those roles.

@TheOneDropRuleIsRacist . If I was pleased about the treatment she got I wouldn't be offended by how people viewed her skin. Make it make sense it.

I think your being deliberately obtuse.

I'm glad you picked up on the Nigeian point that people refer to your husband as white. I agree with you there and I have agreed with you on one of your first other posts. I seem have unsettled you with what I have written but if you looked back at YOUR posts I did agree with some of what you had to say.

In Africa the terms are different though so yes I would not be shocked to hear someone refer to someone as white because the context is totally different to MM and the UK. DS dad says that about my mother.... but I just assume because he's dark and he has not grown up here he views my mother as white... obviously he knows she is not white though. That's a different thing altogether I know DS dad is not being racists or implying anything along them lines obviously not.

The MM situation is far different as she is shunned because of her lighter skin tone within the black community.

@TheOneDropRuleIsRacist

Your view isn't the only. You seem to think there's one way of being Black or Mixed race. I can assure you as a full black person, not 3/4 black, that there isn't.

If people are saying she's white when they know she is mixed race, then I can see what you're saying. But saying she looks white isn't the same as saying she is white. Also you seem to be saying what you can see only because you know her mum is Black. It will be obvious to "see" these things when you already know.

I don't see it as an insult. That's a very weird thing to say unless you're saying it was used to justify the treatment she got. Then that is bad. Otherwise it's your opinion and that's fine. But your opinion is not law.

I didn't look twice at Meghan when I first saw her on Suits and only "noticed" she wasn't white when they introduced her dad, Wendell Pierce. I'm not sure when you got to know her but I did long before her relationship with Harry. Doesn't make me less Black to think so and that is another odd thing to say. Quite offensive and really bizarre. You seem to have notions of Blackness that you may want to "re-educate" yourself on.

I don't know the Black people you were around though but I'd say it was divided what people saw her as. I think those who saw her as White or Black or Mixed would depend on where you go. Lipstick Alley was divided with both H&M unpopular opinions threads and Appreciation threads. So you'd see different opinions based on that.

As I've said, my husband is seen as white by some people in Nigeria but he's biracial. He looks mixed but I'm sure he'll be seen as Black by some people especially in the US. Don't think it's an insult however he's seen unless it's used to justify something bad.

Isn't the whole "I'm black, not mixed race" because of how others see you? Are you saying that everyone has to see you the same or doesn't it fit your narrative that not everyone will see you the way you want to be seen?

Most Black people I know in real life (including me) are just busy living their lives and not following what happens in the Royal family but one can definitely be forgiven to say that Meghan looks like a tan white woman if they didn't know at first she had a Black mum. It's no insult. How in the world can you expect everyone to "see her hair is straightened" and know "she goes to the hairdresser"? All these are things you know because you know about her. If you knew intuitively then, good for you.

Meghan herself says she's biracial or mixed race, not Black so you'd want to accept what she calls herself, if you're claiming to respect others' opinion.

www.elle.com/uk/life-and-culture/news/a26855/more-than-an-other/

She's also mentioned in another article i think that she knows she can look white or black or latina depending on styling so she's gone for auditions for those roles.

What are you talking about. I didn't argue about what MM calls herself. It would be like me saying I'm mixed race people are entitled to do that if they wish I know but what I'm trying to say to you IS. If I was to walk around saying I'm mixed race people would look at me oddly because my hair is FULL afro and I'm not light enough. So that's my main point!

I think we will leave it hear. Your calling my opinion weird.... nobody asked you to agree with me. As stated I agree with some of what your saying but other parts I don't. Let's leave it at that.

I thought MM was white when I first saw a picture of her and hadn’t read anything about her background. She is white passing to many who first see her as you would a stranger on the street.

I know now, she is and identifies as mixed race, so I think of her as mixed race because I’m not going to tell anyone I know their racial identity better than they do! It’s a matter of respect.

I have a cousin who is mixed race white and Asian (Chinese). But when he visited the US, many random people he met mistook him for Latino (he is very tan). Even Latinos would mistake him because he said he’d be approached by someone speaking Spanish to him. It’s not an insult to him that strangers thought that or that he was “Latino passing” while in the US.

Now I’d agree calling a mixed race person by a racial identity other than what they identify as, after you know this identity is insulting. So with MM, as she identifies as mixed race, it is insulting her imho to call her anything other than mixed race whether that is white or black. And with @Iloveabourbon2 who identifies as black...it would be insulting to call her/him/them anything other than black.

@Iloveabourbon2

I didn't say you were pleased. I said if you mean it's an insult because some people used "she looks white" to justify the treatment she got from the RF, then I agree it is terrible.

I called your opinion weird because you decided to say IF I was black...and you wrote that I need to "educate myself culturally" if I thought she looked white, as though my opinion means I can't be black or have no idea what it means to be. I actually still don't know what that meant. That "IF" packs a whole lot.

Anyway, that's fine. We've probably misunderstood each other. So I agree let's leave it there.

I rarely look at names so I didn't remember we've interacted before. It's okay to agree on one point and disagree on another, though. I'm fine with that.

obviously he knows she is not white though. That's a different thing altogether I know DS dad is not being racists or implying anything along them lines obviously not.

I agree and this is what I was getting at. If people were using her skin tone to justify being racist against her, then it's unacceptable.

The MM situation is far different as she is shunned because of her lighter skin tone within the black community.

I find this interesting because I noticed the opposite much more. Lighter skintone or not, Most Black people (in the US/UK, especially the US) tend to call Mixed race people Black. I didn't see the shunning in that regard.

But I know people's experiences differ so I don't mean to say you're wrong here. You saw what you saw and that's valid.

I thought this was interesting as it illustrates using genetic clusters the biological existence of races. Which is the opposite of what many posters are arguing? That if you look at DNA/genetics there are no races?

Holy fuck that is one terrifying racist article. It even admits the drivel it's spouting has been completely rejected by Science:

Following the Second World War, these classifications were declared “pseudoscientific” and “obsolete” by the newly established global order. Their primary argument against the scientific existence of race is that scientifically classifying human biological groups is “evil and mean, and will somehow cause a second Holocaust”

Of course the idea that there are 'caucosoid sub species' of humans has not been rejected because it is mean but because it's without basis.

There are 4 different species of giraffe which look alike but there are no subspecies of human, despite our physical variety.

@donquixotedelamancha

I thought this was interesting as it illustrates using genetic clusters the biological existence of races. Which is the opposite of what many posters are arguing? That if you look at DNA/genetics there are no races?

Holy fuck that is one terrifying racist article. It even admits the drivel it's spouting has been completely rejected by Science:

Following the Second World War, these classifications were declared “pseudoscientific” and “obsolete” by the newly established global order. Their primary argument against the scientific existence of race is that scientifically classifying human biological groups is “evil and mean, and will somehow cause a second Holocaust”

Of course the idea that there are 'caucosoid sub species' of humans has not been rejected because it is mean but because it's without basis.

There are 4 different species of giraffe which look alike but there are no subspecies of human, despite our physical variety.

No, that’s not what it says. You are mistaking the historical section for current thought.

It discussed the history of scientific thought about race and the backlash against “race” as a biological reality post WWII due to Nazis and eugenics. Which is what you have quoted.

It doesn’t say that races are subspecies except earlier in historical context when early 18th c. scientists thought they were subspecies.

(Heck 20th c scientists thought Neanderthals were a different human species, but only in 21st c. did we find evidence that modern humans and Neanderthals were the same species.)

The article is not racist...you are misrepresenting it.

Now I’d agree calling a mixed race person by a racial identity other than what they identify as, after you know this identity is insulting. So with MM, as she identifies as mixed race, it is insulting her imho to call her anything other than mixed race whether that is white or black. And with Iloveabourbon2* who identifies as black... it would be insulting to call her/him/them anything other than black.

I agree. What i said I don't find insulting is saying someone looks White or Black or Latinx. But yes it is disrespectful to call them what they don't call themselves.

Even in Nigeria, the "you look white" comments start only when they know he isn't and stops after it's been said. People call him his name afterwards, and what he looks like doesn't matter or isn't brought up anymore. He's known more as "the son of the soil" (Nigerian), which he cherishes, and British than mixed or white or black.

What i said I don't find insulting is saying someone looks White or Black or Latinx.

I agree with this too.

Well it depends what you mean. By race it has become a very broad term.

Biologically speaking you are what you are, the ethnicity of your ancestors make up your ethnicity, in that way most people have very mixed ethnicity, some of the mix far more watered down than others. Probably the main relevance here is medical as it leaves you more susceptible to certain diseases than others. You can’t choose this.

How you look - you can’t alter this to any great extent unfortunately this will mean being affected by prejudices where they exist

Culture-now this is the big one -in theory yes, anyone can identify with any culture. Unfortunately you have all this crap about cultural appropriation dividing people. But actually stopping division like this is probably one of the main ways that we can try and break out with racist division and all integrate more. Historically this has been the more successful way of inter grating societies

Yes, lots of good points above and it depends on the context. Some things are facts in life eg what your DNA test says and others are an expression of how you feel (my son's friend is half white and half African (or whatever term we are supposed to use these days) and has I think never see her black father and has grown up with a white step father (and white mother) and white siblings in a very middle class white home. I am sure she describes herself as mixed race which is what shis is an an immutable fact but without doubt (other than her explorations of black culture and I presume any discrimination she has suffered) she will be very much be white culture (if that exists).

On the medical side of things we live in or near one of the most Jewish parts of London and they certainly have genetic tests before marriage to check for genetic disease which a white British couple would not need. Also my borough is minority white and with a lot of people at risk of sickle cell (in essence because they have superior genetics for the place from which they come because they developed resistance to malaria in a way my genes and ancestors did not). Another interesting issue with medicine is sex - some women have different reactions to medicine than men do so doing sex differentiated research is not sexist - it is life saving.