Self identifying as black or white

[MontEthna]

Please hear me out.

I have two dcs, both dual citizens who have lived in the UK all their lives. When the census came, there was no way to put two citizenship on the form so I asked them what they wanted me to put. One said british, the other his other citizenship. So they clearly self identified/realted more as as having different citizenship iyswim.

I also have a cousin who mixed race. Her mum (my aunt) is white but her dad is black. But she has never had the opportunity to actually chose which race she is (the way my dcs could chose their main citizenship). She has always been considered black. That's despite the fact she has never lived in her dad's country/africa and was actually raised by another white aunt (having become an orphan). She doesn't relate to 'black culture'. The only way she feels 'different' culture wise is her hair - because she struggles to find a hairdresser who nows how to deal with it.

So my question is: why are people not able to chose which race they are? What if someone who is mixed race feels more like being white than being black (insert any other race there, it doesn't really matter)?

My sisters and I could have ticked different boxes on the census (we didn’t because only one of us lives in the UK), we come from the same ethnic background but we are individuals, whose cultural experiences have been different.

Your relative being able to ‘pass’ as a different ethnicity could have impacted how some people and society have treated her, and those experiences, may have informed how she identifies.

My old flatmate in Amsterdam and I came from the same ethnic and cultural background but our different skin tones, informed people’s differing reactions to us. Likewise, our similar educational backgrounds elevated us (in the eyes of some) from those in a similar income bracket. For many, my flat mates Britishness elevated her above the local Black community.

I am an individual, I am more than my individual parts. If some people wish to put me in a box because of particular aspects of my existence, that’s there lookout.

[quote cinnabarmoth]@Somuddled other posters have already said it, but it bears repeating - race is no longer considered a biological fact, but a social construct.
Wikipedia is not a bad starting point en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_(human_categorization)
but for an interesting and accessible book on this subject, you could try A Brief History of Everyone Who Ever lived, by Adam Rutherford.[/quote]
Interesting, thanks for the recommendations. Will read up on it. I'd always taken it that hunam race categorization is certainly a social construct but on based on inherited (and therfore biological) observable physical differences between humans. Therefore, if you subscribe to the categorization system, you do so based on physical facts.

[quote MontEthna]@MurielSpriggs, yes that’s one question I’ve been asking myself.

How far are you supposed to go back?
Is my cousin son, who has one black grand parents and 3 white grand parents still considered black/mixed race? What about his own dcs if he gets married with a white woman or someone from an entirely different race??

When people are looking at ancestry and are doing genetic testing, it is clear that we all have very varied background race wise. But somehow we are all bogged down by the colour of our skin and our facial features.[/quote]
I wouldn’t say that he’s black as he is only a quarter. I would say he is the last in his line that could say he’s mixed race. If he has DC with a white woman then their DC would not be mixed race.

@Theoldprospector

‘I am mixed race. White and East Asian. Different races. This is different to saying you’re half English half Italian etc (mixed heritage).’

There are no races in human genetics or biology.

Are you white? It’s always the white people who tell me I can’t be mixed race, even though my mum and dad are 100% different races! I am half this and half that. And proud.

I fully agree with someone being the sums fo many different parts rather than just the race part of things.

@Linning, I can see what you mean about being both but relating to a specific culture.

It’s an interesting point because listening to black people in the US, I get the strong feeling that being black and being part of the black culture are two things strongly intertwined and inseparable. So you have people who black but with a ‘pale’ colour (their words) who still feel black - as culturally part of the black community. There seems to be quite a bit of tension around that too with ‘darker’ skin people saying that they still have it harder than the lighter skin people and telling them they can’t call themselves black
They also don’t seem to have the concept of mixed race (unless I’m mistaken)

@Bimblybomeyelash

This is all quite goady.

It’s called discussion.

I don’t think race is purely a social construct. There are biological differences in terms of tendency to develop certain medical conditions and response to certain medication.

This is why they added mixed boxes to tick in the ethnicity sections of forms. I wouldn’t over think things.

@MontEthna
The US does have the concept of mixed race, they call it multiracial and on their census but they only have one box to tick if mixed race titled:
“Two or more races”

Not sure how far back they have had it, but this shows it was on both the 2010 and 2020 census.

www.census.gov/library/stories/2021/08/improved-race-ethnicity-measures-reveal-united-states-population-much-more-multiracial.html

listening to black people in the US, I get the strong feeling that being black and being part of the black culture are two things strongly intertwined and inseparable. So you have people who black but with a ‘pale’ colour (their words) who still feel black - as culturally part of the black community. There seems to be quite a bit of tension around that too with ‘darker’ skin people saying that they still have it harder than the lighter skin people and telling them they can’t call themselves black

Because you can be biologically black and have light skin colour. There is more biologically to being black than dark skin. The same with being white, or Asian you can be light or dark skinned and still white or Asian.

The tension you mention is called colourism. Which is different from racism and is present in all the races for different reasons.

I think part of the problem is that race is often defined by difference and (whether rightly or not) at least in part assigned by other people.
So my son is mixed race. He would probably be described as "black" in the UK, certainly in the USA. When he visits West Africa (where his dad is from) he is white (or sometimes referred to as Chinese because apparently white+black=Asian but that's a whole other thing...)
Where we live now is very ethnically diverse, with a lot of other mixed race/mixed heritage familes. So he tends to refer to himself as "brown, like my friend X". This is the way he chooses to define himself and is, in my opinion, the most accurate. But there is no doubt that it is easier for him to define himself so because of where we live and who his peers are.

I also think it is a particularly tense discussion in America because although many black people have white ancestors further back their family tree and therefore paler skin this is largely due to historical rape. So saying to people they can't define themselves as black/should define themselves as mixed race because of this would be insensitive to say the least. Plus as others have said the one drop rule, and all of the historical ways in which racial boundaries were drawn.
A child born today to two parents of different ethnicities/races as part of a consensual relationship (like my son) is going to have a very different relationship to both sides of that identity.

@MontEthna

Please hear me out.

I have two dcs, both dual citizens who have lived in the UK all their lives. When the census came, there was no way to put two citizenship on the form so I asked them what they wanted me to put. One said british, the other his other citizenship. So they clearly self identified/realted more as as having different citizenship iyswim.

I also have a cousin who mixed race. Her mum (my aunt) is white but her dad is black. But she has never had the opportunity to actually chose which race she is (the way my dcs could chose their main citizenship). She has always been considered black. That's despite the fact she has never lived in her dad's country/africa and was actually raised by another white aunt (having become an orphan). She doesn't relate to 'black culture'. The only way she feels 'different' culture wise is her hair - because she struggles to find a hairdresser who nows how to deal with it.

So my question is: why are people not able to chose which race they are? What if someone who is mixed race feels more like being white than being black (insert any other race there, it doesn't really matter)?

Surely it's simple racism?

White people are pure white. Black means black or non-white.

Yes, you can call someone mixed race if you want, but ultimately they're not pure or white therefore they are black.

FWIW, it seems to me that a mixed raced person has every right to identify as mixed race, and they also have a right to identify as black which by definition means that they also have a right to identify as white.

@MontEthna

I fully agree with someone being the sums fo many different parts rather than just the race part of things.

@Linning, I can see what you mean about being both but relating to a specific culture.

It’s an interesting point because listening to black people in the US, I get the strong feeling that being black and being part of the black culture are two things strongly intertwined and inseparable. So you have people who black but with a ‘pale’ colour (their words) who still feel black - as culturally part of the black community. There seems to be quite a bit of tension around that too with ‘darker’ skin people saying that they still have it harder than the lighter skin people and telling them they can’t call themselves black
They also don’t seem to have the concept of mixed race (unless I’m mistaken)

I used to live in the US and it’s true that black people (regardless of their shade of blackness/darkness) are very attached to their black identity and culture. In fact while in the US, I too fell a very strong sense of attachment to my black identity and to black culture and it did become a center point of my identity and, in many ways, life there. BUT that’s because race and racial divide is SUCH SUCH a big thing in the US.

I used to live in California so probably the most liberal and multicultural place in the US alongside NYC and it was impossible to detach yourself from your ethnic background, no matter which one you belonged to. You are litterally forced to. Not by society as much as by how the US system works. Every form you ever fill ask you about your ethnic background, treatment of individuals from different ethnic backgrounds are treated differently. African-American people are shot by police, Asian- Americans are being beaten up and killed by fellow citizens, Mexicans and Latinos are treated like dirt under people’s shoes. There is NO other way than to become even more fiercely proud and protective of your culture and identity.

In the US there was NO WAY I could even pretend I was white. I absolutely feared the police, and equally feared vocally racist and agressive white folks. The treatment of black people, the stereotyping of black women, the conditions of life of black kids. It’s impossible to ignore. You simply cannot ignore statistics and it was impossible to deny my African black side when there because things that were happening were too outrageous, too painful, too infuriating, and too unfair for me to hide behind any white identity. In fact in the US I became angry, angry at the white side of me/my family. I became even more aware of the ingrained racism in my (white) family, even more outraged by it, at me for not noticing and not standing up to it for too long and at them for bathing in their white privileges all while denying how harmful their views/actions and lack of actions are.

As a mixed race light skin person I absolutely DO NOT have the same experience as darker black folks. I never have and I never will. Black folks are right in saying a brown girl only knows parts of the struggle. As an half-white woman, I have benefited greatly from white privileges. I have a white mom who can get me out of trouble if need be, I have had access (to a certain extent) to the wealth, education and power of my quite family, I have half the generational trauma of a full-black family, I am lighter skinned and therefore seen as more attractive than darker skin women, I don’t suffer from the same negative stereotype as darker black women, I don’t fear the police the way I would if I was darker (it doesn’t mean that I don’t fear them, but that I know that if my family got involved I would have more chances of it being solved without or with less violence than if my entire family was black) and I don’t suffer racism to the extent someone darker does.

As a light(er)-skin black woman I felt deeply black in America, but I am NOT black. I am brown, and I go through life being treated as such.

Mixed race is a thing in the US but remember that most African-Americans are mixed race, a lot are
more dark-brown than black and most African-American have NO clue of their ancestry due to slavery. The notion of Bi-raciality is therefore way less understood and less inclusive/accepted than in Europe. It’s a problem but it’s also not surprising when you look at the US history.

@PRsecrets To be honest, I have worried about that as well. The country we live in can be quite racist in parts, but I have noticed that he is often assumed by other people to be Morrocan or North African. Of course they are also subject to prejudice from the police, but most of the Moroccans I know describe themselves as Moroccan rather than black. My son would always correct someone if they asked if he was Moroccan - not because he is prejudice, he has friends who are, but just because he isn't. In the US he would definitely be considered black but his father point blank refuses to go there (I don't blame him) - so he hasn't experienced that yet. Its not that I'm against him defining himself as black, but because he visits his fathers family a lot I know that would be confusing to him because over there he isn't black. Ironically I think if he had less contact with that side of his heritage, it would be easier to define himself as black but having contact with that side is extremely important. What I don't want to do is create a situation where the white side of his family (me) is telling him he isn't white or mixed race, he is black and his relationships on the African side telling him he isn't black. As that would leave him with nowhere. So I am happy, for the time at least, that he is happy with his identity of mixed race, and has people around him who also reflect that. But I know he could have problems as he grows up.

Great post, Linning and thought-provoking.

Personally I don't understand why I could legally change my gender, but cannot change my age or race.

To me, I feel I am physically closer to being a black woman than I am a white man. I'm physically closer to being a 20yo or a 60yo woman than a 40yo man (and my current body is probably closer to the 60yo than my actual age, ahem).

I'm not sure how race is no longer deemed an actual thing, as some posters claim. All humans are one species, sure, but all dogs are one species - you still get different categories (e.g. wolves are the same species as a poodle, but very different physically and in terms of temperament).

If race didn't exist then by definition racism can't exist either. You can't discriminate on the basis of something that isn't real. The law, and my own eyes, tell me otherwise.

As for the OP's original query, the cousin would be categorised as a POC now (the term which seems to be replacing BAME). Basically everyone who is not completely white is a person of colour. Which is bloody weird actually, it's basically saying there's a "default" or "normal" (white) and then an "everything else" bucket.

Race is a social construct, but a powerful one. Yes some ethnicities are more prone to certain illnesses or biological factors such as lactose intolerance. That is simple genetics and sometimes cultural lifestyles. Because for all the talk of mixing, until relatively recently, most people married and had children with someone who was born within 50 miles of where they lived. So certain genes become more concentrated in geographical areas.
For example near me was a large village that was known fifty years ago for having an unusually high number of people with six fingers. An extreme example, but genetic susceptibility to some diseases is about genetics and breeding, not race. It simply correlates with race.
Cultural lifestyle can also be a factor. So diabetes is far higher amongst white people in Britain than in Japanese communities. Because the lifestyle is so different. Although again there can be an inherited propensity probably through epigenetics. If you have parents who have diabetes from a young age, you are more likely to develop diabetes.

My family has children, young adults who look very different. One who is clearly Middle Eastern, one who could pass for Mediterranean or white on a beach, and one who looks totally white, down to the freckles and very pale skin. If I didn't know better, I would wonder if they really were related
I have also noticed that people in Britain don't accept if a white person says they are African. A friend, totally white not mixed was born and brought up in Africa but now lives in Britain. If he says he is African this is never accepted. A white person can't be African!

My daughters are both mixed race (white British/black Caribbean) one is darker skinned and may not be obviously mixed to anyone who doesn’t know. Neither sees their black
Family and are being raised in a predominantly white area where they are the only people of colour in their classes. But both relate to and are proud of their black heritage because it’s my job as their mother to educate them, to bring black culture into their lives and show them black excellence and pride. Granted I can’t directly relate but I have learned and educated myself, I've sought guidance from black friends and support, I’ve made sure that they aren’t being raised to just identify with my side as their blackness is something that I want them to be comfortable with and understand and take pride in. I’ve seen the results of someone who is mixed race being raised entirely white, and the self hate is so strong, I feel sad talking to her, her family has messed her whole sense of self up to the point she is basically racist towards black people. So imo it’s not for your cousin to chose, it’s for the person raising her to make sure she doesn’t have to and is proud of all her aspects heritage and is comfortable with who she is. And if they’re not doing that (and the fact this thread exists where you expect her to choose suggests they aren’t) then your family are setting her up for a lifetime of feeling like an outsider and never truly knowing herself because a whole part of her identity is being ignored.

@Bimblybomeyelash

This is all quite goady.

It's making me uncomfortable too. Not necessarily goady though.

I think it's all the "passing for white" comments. It's as if you think people with lighter skins and more "white" features are obtaining something that isn't rightfully theirs. I suppose it at least acknowledges that being white is an advantage, so that's something.

Is the phrase "passing for black" ever used? Not frequently, I would guess.

All humans are one species, sure, but all dogs are one species - you still get different categories (e.g. wolves are the same species as a poodle, but very different physically and in terms of temperament)

Wolves are canis lupus and dogs are canis familiaris- same genus but distinct species

Is the phrase "passing for black" ever used? Not frequently, I would guess.

In a different context, say blackfishing, yes. Though I accept in that instance it's that they aim to pass for mixed / ambiguous rather than fully black. It's a huge and very profitable industry.

‘Are you white? It’s always the white people who tell me I can’t be mixed race, even though my mum and dad are 100% different races! I am half this and half that. And proud.’

I am not telling you you can’t identify as mixed race. You can identify is whatever you want.

I am stating that race is a social category for humans not a biological one.

This is simply a matter of fact. The field of biology does not divide humans up into different races; it doesn’t recognise them as existing biologically.

Yes there is human geographical variation in certain health conditions, but these do not map on to outmoded models of different races that were invented based on slavery.