Self identifying as black or white

[MontEthna]

Please hear me out.

I have two dcs, both dual citizens who have lived in the UK all their lives. When the census came, there was no way to put two citizenship on the form so I asked them what they wanted me to put. One said british, the other his other citizenship. So they clearly self identified/realted more as as having different citizenship iyswim.

I also have a cousin who mixed race. Her mum (my aunt) is white but her dad is black. But she has never had the opportunity to actually chose which race she is (the way my dcs could chose their main citizenship). She has always been considered black. That's despite the fact she has never lived in her dad's country/africa and was actually raised by another white aunt (having become an orphan). She doesn't relate to 'black culture'. The only way she feels 'different' culture wise is her hair - because she struggles to find a hairdresser who nows how to deal with it.

So my question is: why are people not able to chose which race they are? What if someone who is mixed race feels more like being white than being black (insert any other race there, it doesn't really matter)?

I don't think it is goady. It is just an uncomfortable subject because it raises so many issues.
But lets face it we don't really talk in Britain with any nuance around race at all. It is like this whole subject that people are afraid to talk about unless it is to spout racism.

I worked with someone once who was very concerned about a teenage boy she was working with, whose heritage was half white, half black African. His black African parent had abandoned him as a young child and he had an strong feelings of anger and rejection around it, understandably. But my colleagues concern was that the young person insisted he was "white" and wouldn't identify as "black". To me this was just representative of his feeling towards his parent, and I felt with time he may want to explore his heritage and that side of his family. However right now we had a young, dual ethnicity teenager who needed support. However my colleague pushed for him to join our BLM group, be part of our BAME looked after children group etc, really pushed for him to 'embrace his black identity'. It made me think for the first time about how children with one white and black parent are told they are black. It made me think of the old one drop rule in America and how racist that was. How does it feel to be have one white parent and white black parent, and yet be told all white people are all racist against black people, whether they mean to be or not, knowing one of your parents is white? Being told no you're black, not white, despite your white parent, and white people are all by default racist. It must be so hard. And it's told to you in the name of anti-racism.

While the teenager in my example no doubt would be better off making peace with all of his identity, to me the starting point felt like looking at his trauma and parental relationships, not pushing an ethnic 'identity' on him that he just didn't want to be embracing at that time. We wouldn't insist a child who had a parent from a traveller background that they hated should join a special group for traveller children, or if a child with a different, non-black mixed heritage felt that way we wouldn't push Japanese or Lithuanian or whatever culture they were from on them. I worry about how dual ethnicity children feel when we boil race down to white vs non white, which seems to often be the view promoted specifically by anti-racists. Like in the channel 4 documentary about a school trying to end racism, where the dual ethnicity girl was being forced to choose black or white... Who is that helping? How is that reducing divisiveness?

I agree julieca

As for the OP's original query, the cousin would be categorised as a POC now (the term which seems to be replacing BAME). Basically everyone who is not completely white is a person of colour. Which is bloody weird actually, it's basically saying there's a "default" or "normal" (white) and then an "everything else" bucket.

Yes. That's one thing that is making me deeply unconfortable.
It's putting whiteness above everything else.

There has been some talk too about being 'pure' white which I am finding deeply uncomfortable too.

We can choose on most paperwork - you get occasional situations where someone official else asks and they choose to put down a different answer or they just put something down without asking which is really fucking annoying, but for most things, people can pick what to put down and how to identify their backgrounds.

Whether others agree with us is a different matter. Other people identify me as all sorts of backgrounds - no Brit ever gets it right. It doesn't change what my heritage is, but there are times it noticeable changes how people treat me. Part of our identities is always social - how other people treat us affects how we see ourselves and cultures create ways to divide people.

My kids are mixed and get remarks about how they're "not really British" based on how they look and even more on how they sound. My DS1 identifies as White British and he always puts that when asked. He's not erasing anything, it's how he views himself - he doesn't think being a bit darker than most White people he knows or having one parent of another background changes that he's British. His accent doesn't change his cultural background, what we celebrate in our home with him doesn't change it either.

My DD1, who has probably had the shitty remarks the most out of my 4 kids, puts down Mixed or 'Prefer not to answer' though she also very clearly identifies as British too when asked. She's not erasing anything either, she just hates that so many people make assumptions about her on how she looks and sounds and prefers not to see herself that way.

There is no singular black culture, just like there is no singular white culture, or any other racial category. Cultures change as their populations change, and people can continuously change how they interact with the ideas, social norms and behaviours, stories and other creations around them and how that affects our sense of self may change over time. Few in the UK are only within one culture these days and what makes British / English / Welsh / Scottish / Cornish / Manx... culture depends on who you ask. Kids like mine, immigrants like me, we're part of that.

My husband is biracial - His dad is white British and his mum is a monoracial Black woman from Nigeria, so not mixed (People often forget that there are Black people who are "pure" too and aren't mixed). He calls himself biracial because he's a product of two races.

He was raised as a whole person to identify with and be proud of both cultures without the need to choose one. This gave him a strong grasp of who he is from an early age. He said he's never allowed anyone to make him choose where he belongs when he doesn't belong to one community but both. If he's to choose, then it's a whole new community of mixed race, rather than go to either side. (Meghan Markle and her dad said the same thing).

In Nigeria, he's seen as both Nigerian and British, as well as either mixed race (because of who he is) or white (because of how he looks to them). There's no one drop rule in Nigeria, you are what you are and what your parents are. Although, in some places there, you are what your father is. In the UK, he looks mixed, not black or white.

Both he and his mum have suffered untold racism in the UK but that doesn't change who he is. He just happens to be a mixed race man who's suffered untold racism in the UK - his suffering doesn't turn him into Black. By that logic, a black person isn't really black if they haven't suffered racism yet.

As I've said before, I learned a lot of what I know now from him.

I am Black.

I've had this discussion with some of my mixed race friends and interestingly there is a difference in identity depending on which parent is of which race. In the most general sense (and true of myself also) if your mother is black you're more inclined to identify with your black side than if your mother is white (not sure how this stacks up in other mixes). Anecdote is of course not data - but I find people's individual reasoning very interesting as there's no 'rule'.

And not because I've suffered racism or I may suffer racism again. There's more to me being Black than that. I was surrounded by a whole community of Black people so I know.

I've actually suffered far fewer incidents of racism than he has, so I suppose he's Blacker than I am. If that's the key factor.

@PRsecrets

I think we're coming at this from slightly different angles but generally on the same page. In many ways, I understand and agree with what you're saying. I disagree with a few bits but I'm not going to push it, as it's not about forcing my opinion on anyone.

I'm just stating mine, like everybody else.

@PRsecrets

Both he and his mum have suffered untold racism in the UK but that doesn't change who he is. He just happens to be a mixed race man who's suffered untold racism in the UK - his suffering doesn't turn him into Black. By that logic, a black person isn't really black if they haven't suffered racism yet.

As I've said before, I learned a lot of what I know now from him.

While his view is valid, you should remember that your husband is just one person. So if you yourself are not mixed race or black, you would do well to learn more about race than from that tiny pool of one. Many mixed race brits identify as black - Lewis Hamilton, Afua Hirsch and Akala being a few off the top of my head. And they do so for very valid reasons. Some of which are why, as I explained more fully upthread, I'm raising my mixed children to proudly identify as both mixed race and black.

In all seriousness why aren't you raising them as white too? Other than because the country is predominantly white, quite racist, and you can;t identify as white unless you pass the Yaxley-Lennon test

Well I can see why tbh.

I’ve raised my dcs with my own culture (they got the Britishness form DH). I see no reason why I should have raised them BRITISH when my own country/culture is also part of who they are.

But on a race pov, if people are going to constantly assume you are black and treat you as such, it is essential for the child to also have the tools to deal with that.
I mean I ve never experienced racism because I’m white. But I’ve experience xenophobia, its cousin. It made sense to me to teach my dcs how to handle xenophobia and to be sure they were proud of ALSO being half something else.

Plus, there is no way I could have raised them BRITISH because I’m not BRITISH. I’m going to assume that it’s quite hard to raise a child to ‘be white’ if you are not white yourself….

Surely it has nothing to do with “relating to the culture”? Otherwise Rachel Dolezal could claim to be black because she identified with black culture. I’d expect it to be based on your heritage i.e. genetics.

Apart from anything else what constitutes raising a child 'to be white'?

@Theoldprospector

‘Are you white? It’s always the white people who tell me I can’t be mixed race, even though my mum and dad are 100% different races! I am half this and half that. And proud.’

I am not telling you you can’t identify as mixed race. You can identify is whatever you want.

I am stating that race is a social category for humans not a biological one.

This is simply a matter of fact. The field of biology does not divide humans up into different races; it doesn’t recognise them as existing biologically.

Yes there is human geographical variation in certain health conditions, but these do not map on to outmoded models of different races that were invented based on slavery.

I am mixed race and race is definitely a real thing and not simply a “social construct.” There are biological differences.

I am stating that race is a social category for humans not a biological one. This is simply a matter of fact. The field of biology does not divide humans up into different races; it doesn’t recognise them as existing biologically. Yes there is human geographical variation in certain health conditions, but these do not map on to outmoded models of different races that were invented based on slavery.

Everything is a social category or construct, but race like sex is one based on biological differences. And while biology may be satisfied with calling us all Homo sapiens sapiens, other fields based in biology do distinguish between races- forensics and medicine are examples.

And the concept of race existed long before the trans Atlantic slave trade. It was used in ancient times to describe different ethnicities and slavery then had nothing to do with race. Ancient Greeks took other ancient Greeks as slaves whenever their various city states defeated one another. It has also been well studied that Ancient Egyptian depictions of Nubians reflected not only race consciousness but racism within their culture. In Ancient China, racism against Han chinese was rife when the last Han dynasty was conquered by northerners of more mongol ethnicity.

Races were not invented based on slavery, both were invented separately in ancient times. What happened with the trans Atlantic slave trade was a slave trade that was not only justified by racism but targeted specifically against African black peoples. That and the sheer genocidal scale of it had never before been seen in the long history of the atrocity of slavery.

So imo it’s not for your cousin to chose, it’s for the person raising her to make sure she doesn’t have to and is proud of all her aspects heritage and is comfortable with who she is. And if they’re not doing that (and the fact this thread exists where you expect her to choose suggests they aren’t) then your family are setting her up for a lifetime of feeling like an outsider and never truly knowing herself because a whole part of her identity is being ignored.
@Brainfogmcfogface you hit the nail on the head here 👏

This is how it starts confusion. Even if you look white your children should know you are not white

It's like the whole Megan Markle issue even black people they were the worst ones slagging MM down saying she looks white. She looks mixed race to me my own mother is the same skin tone.

‘And while biology may be satisfied with calling us all Homo sapiens sapiens, other fields based in biology do distinguish between races- forensics and medicine are examples.’

We are going around in circles. Medicine will use race as a social category just as it uses tribal groups, ethnicities and regions as social categories, but it doesn’t recognise race as a biological category. Medicine does recognise sex as solely a biological category.

If you look at Ugandans, for example, 20% of people have sickle cell. Among the Bamba people it is 45%. These are biological differences but neither the Ugandans nor the Bamba (who are also Ugandan) are defined by biological differences. They are social groups. The same is true of race. There are differences in genetic factors in heart disease between people in the North East of England and the South of England, but we are not different races!

That is wholly different to sex which is entirely categorised based on biological differences.

I am not referring to Ancient Greek slavery. I am referring to the slave trade that existed at around the time that the modern ideas of race came into being - so from the 17th-19th centuries. I am not referring to every possible permutation of ethnicity and slavery that ever existed but the ones that greatly influence how people understand their own race and ethnicity in the Anglo sphere now.

Everything is a social category or construct, but race like sex is one based on biological differences

This doesn’t ring true to me. By this token, we should also categorise people by eye colour.

Race is a social construct. What creates differences in DNA is more tribes of people living completely separate to each other for long periods of time. I remember read about two tribes in Africa that were separated by a mountain range for centuries. Both tribes were black but their DNA was completely different to one another’s. One tribe had DNA that was much more similar to a white Caucasian person while the other didn’t.

I’m probably not explaining it well, it was a national geographic article. I will try to find a link.

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.nationalgeographic.co.uk/people-and-culture/2018/04/theres-no-scientific-basis-race-its-made-label/amp

@Iloveabourbon2 "black people" were the "worst ones"??? Are you ok? Some of us were arguing that the amount of aggressions she was facing in the media were just down right racist. Mumsnet alone was full of threads of people wondering what is is about her that they just don't like

Race is a social construct

I don't think it's the case. If I went on to have medical treatment, and treatment was different depending on my race, I would expect doctors to know this and act on it appropriately (and I can think of at least two examples that would apply to me)

I assume everyone would expect something similar.

We don't want to live in a world where ideological narratives override reality.

For example, if I were to be more prone to diabetes, I wouldn't want doctors to be forbidden to recognise racial differences (as a result of lobby group pressure) and hence not treat me accordingly.