Self identifying as black or white

[MontEthna]

Please hear me out.

I have two dcs, both dual citizens who have lived in the UK all their lives. When the census came, there was no way to put two citizenship on the form so I asked them what they wanted me to put. One said british, the other his other citizenship. So they clearly self identified/realted more as as having different citizenship iyswim.

I also have a cousin who mixed race. Her mum (my aunt) is white but her dad is black. But she has never had the opportunity to actually chose which race she is (the way my dcs could chose their main citizenship). She has always been considered black. That's despite the fact she has never lived in her dad's country/africa and was actually raised by another white aunt (having become an orphan). She doesn't relate to 'black culture'. The only way she feels 'different' culture wise is her hair - because she struggles to find a hairdresser who nows how to deal with it.

So my question is: why are people not able to chose which race they are? What if someone who is mixed race feels more like being white than being black (insert any other race there, it doesn't really matter)?

You can’t choose your race as this is based on biological aspects.

It really isn't. In Spain there are villages 20 miles apart which are more genetically different than two people you might pick from different continents.

Some phenotypes (like African features and sickle cell anemia) correlate but that's not race.

Broccoli, Cauliflower, sprouts and cabbages are races of cabbage- all the same species. A great dane and a sausage dog are the same race.

Physical differences and similarities do not mean that a group are necessarily genetically similar.

‘Is that the same sort of difference one would make between sex and gender?’

No, because race isn’t a biological category in humans and sex is.

@MurielSpriggs, yes that’s one question I’ve been asking myself.

How far are you supposed to go back?
Is my cousin son, who has one black grand parents and 3 white grand parents still considered black/mixed race? What about his own dcs if he gets married with a white woman or someone from an entirely different race??

When people are looking at ancestry and are doing genetic testing, it is clear that we all have very varied background race wise. But somehow we are all bogged down by the colour of our skin and our facial features.

No, because race isn’t a biological category in humans and sex is.

Indeed. It's arguably reasonable to identify with a 'race' you've joined because so much is culture. It's utterly fucking batshit to identify as the opposite sex.

(NB this is not having a go at trans people. Most trans people know exactly what sex they are)

In some ways, to me, culture is more relevant than the colour of the skin.

I’m always reminded of friends of mine in the south of France. Some of them have dark skin, esp at the end of the summer. Here they would probably fall into the black/mixed race category. But there they are white that happen to tan very well.
Culturally, this makes more sense to me rather than assuming a mixed heritage/culture they don’t have iyswim

@ozanj.
Exactly the same as me romany and Indian.
There are 4 of us .
My brother and myself are tanned with black hair and dark eyes our 2 sisters are very pale with blond hair and blue eyes we all most definitely have the same father.

My DD is mixed / other. She doesn’t look black or white. She looks mixed. She is proud of being of mixed heritage and wouldn’t identify any other way. As a family, we truthfully never really think about racial differences. She is British in terms of her culture as she has only ever known life as a British person (despite her Dad being a different nationality). I don’t think it needs to be so complicated. If you are mixed, you are mixed!

Indeed @Mummadeze

@Mummadeze does your dd not feel part of her culture is also her dad’s?

@Mummadeze

My DD is mixed / other. She doesn’t look black or white. She looks mixed. She is proud of being of mixed heritage and wouldn’t identify any other way. As a family, we truthfully never really think about racial differences. She is British in terms of her culture as she has only ever known life as a British person (despite her Dad being a different nationality). I don’t think it needs to be so complicated. If you are mixed, you are mixed!

It's interesting you state your DD is British yes because that's where she was born. But most people who have a foreign parent would class themselves as British like your saying but things like different foods... even accents from your parents can be picked up sometimes despite been born in UK. So your DD only relates to a British culture? With a foreign parent.

Her Dad has not really passed any of his culture on to her. He is mixed heritage himself but has lived in the U.K. for a long time. He doesn’t feel British but I don’t think he felt he really belonged in the country he grew up in either. We have never visited there as a family and he hasn’t taught her the language. It is his lack of cultural identity that has led to her being culturally British. She does say she is half xxx but those are just words to her. She knows very little about the country he was raised in.

Radio silence from MNHQ as to why my posts keep getting deleted. I remember now why I told myself to avoid even opening threads on ethnicity/race, let alone engage.

@donquixotedelamancha Humans are not remotely genetically grouped enough to have races. Race theory was disproven at the start of the 20th century.

I am mixed race. White and East Asian. Different races. This is different to saying you’re half English half Italian etc (mixed heritage).

I’m mixed race black/white and I consider myself white, I look white (everyone is very surprised when they find out my dad is black) even my kids insist I’m white 🙄

I am mixed race black/white (I am brown) and I consider myself culturally “white” (culturally French) as I grew up with the white side of my family but it wouldn’t occur to me to identify as “white”. I am NOT white. I am NOT black either though to the world I am a few shades closer to black than I am to white but I am brown. Calling myself white, on top of being erroneous, would be implying that I go through life experiencing life as a white person. I don’t. Your cousin doesn’t either according to the experiences you have said she faced.

She is brown (from what I get) and I am afraid she doesn’t get to pick that.

I don’t relate much to the African culture but I am still half-African. I relate most to French/“White” culture but I am still not white.

I would never identify as black (though I might self-describe as such for as the quickest descriptive), not because I am white, but because black folks face a very different reality to Brown/Mixed race/ lighter skin people of color, the same way white people have a totally different reality to mine and identifying as either would be detrimental to me and people like me.

I am mixed. Irrelevant of which side I relate to most or which one I wish I was. I will always be mixed, pretending I am not adds to the stigma surrounding mixed race individual and won’t make my life any better.

‘I am mixed race. White and East Asian. Different races. This is different to saying you’re half English half Italian etc (mixed heritage).’

There are no races in human genetics or biology.

Also OP, it’s white people who usually act as if brown folks can’t be remotely white and have no white heritage, black/POC usually like to emphasize the white heritage of Mixed individuals as a way to outcast them from POC struggles and experiences.

So no, Mixed race/brown people are FOREVER reminded of their dual heritages just not for the same reason and not in the same way. If anything, people have tried to suppress my black heritage more than my white heritage.

“Oh don’t be silly, you are not black, just a bit coffee and Milk.”

“Oh you look like you are from Brazil or one of the islands!”

I just have to self-refer as black for a white person to come jumping and reassure me I am not .

I don’t even know where I could get away with self-referencing as white and it positively affecting my life. I think it would just make people laugh and likely expose me to bullying/harassment and potential physical harm from people who disagree all while not protecting me at all from the downsides I experience as an half-black individual.

The idea that small phenotypic differences like skin colour or medical conditions in particular groups constitute a separate race which determines people's character is racism.

I entirely agree. Ascribing character traits or stereotypes to people based upon their skin colour or ancestry is racism.

I still don't see why recognising that biological differences and similarities exist among groups of people with common ancestry is false or racist.

I still don't see why recognising that biological differences and similarities exist among groups of people with common ancestry is false or racist.

Of course not. I'm merely suggesting that we avoid using the language of race theory.

That said, I'm not going to tell anyone how they should self describe- just saying I agree with OP's points.

@toocold54

And the other way around, there was a story a few years back about a baby born from two black parents but was white.

Your genetics are your genetics. If you’re albino and your parents are both black, you are still black. I watched a documentary about a black family with albino children and the children identified as being black.

There are a lot of racial stereotypes which people think if they don’t fit into it must be because they identify as a different race but it’s not. Very similar to those who believe they must be born in the wrong body because they like cars instead of make up etc.

www.refinery29.com/en-gb/2018/06/201299/joanne-dion-model

This lady as well identifies as being Black - while she has albinism and therefore "white" colouring clearly there is more to her idenity as a black woman than the colour of her skin. Was a very interesting article.

There are no races in human genetics or biology

How do you explain research and conclusions like these then (and many others)? Researches seem to believe races do exist?

Moderate caffeine intake associated with higher level for Asians, lower for whites

www.nih.gov/news-events/news-releases/nih-study-shows-caffeine-consumption-linked-estrogen-changes

‘How do you explain research and conclusions like these then (and many others)? Researches seem to believe races do exist?’

They are socially defined groups. Lots of biological research is done on socially defined groups. The populations of different countries, different regions, different cities, different classes can all form social categories in medical research. That doesn’t mean the groups themselves are biologically defined.

How do you explain research and conclusions like these then (and many others)? Researches seem to believe races do exist?

That research doesn't say that. It doesn't mention race once.

Why is anyone so determined to promote race theory?

You can usually become any nationality you want though, through meeting that country's requirements. Race, age, sex are all biological, so you can't just self identify. They are static facts.

@Somuddled other posters have already said it, but it bears repeating - race is no longer considered a biological fact, but a social construct.
Wikipedia is not a bad starting point en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_(human_categorization)
but for an interesting and accessible book on this subject, you could try A Brief History of Everyone Who Ever lived, by Adam Rutherford.