To be astounded people are defending John Barrowman

[GoldFrankensteinAndGrrr]

Or that they ever did, but particularly in the current climate.

Defending/diminishing the actions of a man whose colleagues have repeatedly said has exposed himself at work? Really? If he worked at Sainsbury's and did it there would it be ok too?

Some of the excuses I've heard include he's gay so he didn't fancy them, what's the problem/it was just a laugh/he's in showbusiness, it's different and so on. No. It's not. Assault is assault and dismissing it or justifying it, or implying that women need to lighten up and get a sense of humour, normalises his actions and validates others who do similar - it's just messing about/a bit of fun, after all.

I cannot believe that anyone would think it's ok to slap your penis on a colleague's body while at work, but apparently some people do. Bonkers.

@DancesWithTortoises

It was years ago. He apologised.

I can't get worked up about something that happened so long ago and was "case closed" after a fulsome apology.

Of course he went too far, he knows that now. I'll be watching his new programme.

Flaming torches, anyone?

You 'Can't get worked up about something that happened so long ago' ? really?

I suppose you could give that exact advice to victims of assaults/rapes/attacks and see how they react.

I think there were huge issues on the Doctor Who and Torchwood productions with a lot of people throwing their weight around and a lot of unacceptable behaviour going unchecked.

Christopher Eccleston quit after one season partly due to the working environment and has made comments about how some members of staff (unnamed) were treating other members of staff. John Barrowman has referred to Eccleston in interviews as "grumpy" and "miserable" and that they didn't really get on because he wasn't up for a laugh, I'd put money on Barrowman being one of the people that Eccleston was referring to and that Barrowman considered him to be miserable because he wasn't accepting of his behaviour.

On the Torchwood set there was allegedly a falling out between Barrowman and James Marsters over Barrowman's sexualised comments and behaviour on set.

@DancesWithTortoises

It was years ago. He apologised.

I can't get worked up about something that happened so long ago and was "case closed" after a fulsome apology.

Of course he went too far, he knows that now. I'll be watching his new programme.

Flaming torches, anyone?

Wait, what? So time passed equals an erasure of a person's actions? I was violently raped and assaulted over a decade ago. I only came to terms with what was done to me this year, in fact. So because it was years ago, it didn't happen? I am magically un-raped? Yeah, that's not how it works.

I have been groped and sexually assaulted by a comedian. One whose heyday was in the 80s and 90s. He certainly felt more than entitled to do what he did, and he did it very quickly. I shouted "hey!" and he stopped, grinned at me and kept talking bollocks. My friend and I were absolutely stunned. A member of his crew came to speak to us and he was so apologetic and concerned and said that he does this all the time, everyone who works with him has always known and that they're all like it, so he advised us to decline any backstage passes or experiences we are ever offered.

Exposing genitalia intentionally is a criminal offence for a reason, and this should have been dealt with as such on the first occasion.
Trouble is —- money. TV companies, managers etc have too much invested to want to lose financially so let it go, cover up or pass it off as “ a bit if fun” No, it’s not.
When my daughter went to work in London I told her to use her voice if she was ever touched inappropriately—— say loudly, whose hand is this groping at me? Get it away now.

Trouble is —- money. TV companies, managers etc have too much invested to want to lose financially so let it go, cover up or pass it off as “ a bit if fun”

This.

Far easier and cheaper to get rid of the person complaining, who is usually junior, than it is to deal with the perpetrator.

@NoLeafClover

I had a similar experience in the 90s. I agree. Whether it happened 25 years ago or yesterday, it happened.

The man who raped me was a fairly prominent figure in the music industry at the time. For a long time I couldn't go to gigs or even read the music press fit for fear of seeing him. He still pops up occasionally in the media and when he does it's like the past 25 years didn't happen, and I'm right back there. I still won't go to gigs in the city where he lives in case he's there.

@DancesWithTortoises but I suppose I should just get over it, eh? After all it was such a long time ago, and he should be forgiven, no?

So 30 MNetters have voted you as being unreasonable.

I suppose - grudging - at least @DancesWithTortoises has posted their views, unlike the other 29.

How on earth can any of you 29 posters defend this kind of behaviour?

Even before the 'big fame' days, he had a name for a "prank" at parties where he got his knob out and held it in front of himself in a hot-dog bun, to see if anyone would recognise it as what it was and not an actual hot-dog.
"Hilarious".

Also annoyed me on one occasion when speaking about his partner Scott and their devoted relationship - and almost in the same breath crowed "but I can't promise that I won't ever go with a woman again!". Lovely.

I saw someone on Tv saying that JB used to get his cock out and slap it on the piano keyboard when someone was playing it on stage.
The more I hear about him the more I think what a dangerous man he is.

I hadn’t heard this about Barrowman before but then I’ve never been very interested in him at all, he shot to prominence without my even being aware of his existence. Agree with everyone that this is absolutely not acceptable and no man should get a free pass for this kind of behaviour, whatever his sexuality.

But I’m not really surprised that some people are still defending him. The last few years have demonstrated to me amply just how much people are willing to deny the most obvious things and to create a parallel reality where things that are actually really bad and damaging are supposedly great and to be celebrated.

There are so many, many ways in which women are pressured into believing they have no rights to boundaries, have to put up with low level sexual assault and “banter” as part of normal life, are not “cool” if they object to their boundaries being violated.

And it’s striking how many of the women (and men) who publicly handwring about the toxicity and ubiquity of this whole culture are the very same people shaming and demonising women for wanting to have boundaries around a certain subset of Very Special (biologically) male people, indeed actively promoting the violation of women’s boundaries when it comes to those people.

The cognitive dissonance is off the scale, and it makes my head hurt.

But then, I’m starting to think that cognitive dissonance is what makes the world go round, so there you go. Plus ça change.

@GoodnightGrandma

I saw someone on Tv saying that JB used to get his cock out and slap it on the piano keyboard when someone was playing it on stage. The more I hear about him the more I think what a dangerous man he is.

Jb himself talking about it He's proud of his disgusting behavior.

Him apologising for his actions isn't a get out of jail free card. Personally I doubt his apology was sincere, all he was doing was trying to save his career (which, inexplicably, may have worked). "Notwithstanding your guilty pleas, therefore, I have seen no evidence of genuine contrition on your part, as opposed to evident self-pity and attempts by you to avoid or minimise the proper consequences of what you have done," said the judge to the Everard killer. The same applies to Barrowman.

Even if the remorse was sincere, it really doesn't matter. Couzens would probably have still got a full life order, at the very least a minimum of 35 years plus so would very likely have died in prison anyway. The same should be true to Barrowman, he has admitted to acts that would warrant a place on the sex offender's register and a custodial sentence. (For the avoidance of doubt - I'm not saying he is one because he's not been convicted.)

(starts 2 mins in on that video)

Ah, so he’s doing it to keep the morale of the company up. That’s ok then 😡😡😡😡

@GoldFrankensteinAndGrrr, I'm so sorry you've been through such a horrible experience too . You're right, it never leaves you. I can be doing just fine (which I am, most of the time), then something triggers a memory and, bam, I'm back there. Frozen.

Weirdly, the man who raped me was also fairly prominent in the music industry. Not a musician or performer, but well known in his area of expertise. I'd imagine that much like TV and movies, it's an industry full of such behavior.

I hope at last, people will stop regarding flashing as hilarious, and see it for what it is.
Predatory behaviour which may be indicative of serious sexual aberrance and the possibility of extreme criminality.

I am sorry to hear of the experiences of some of the people on this thread .
I think following Sarah Everard murder, it's going to be much harder for people to try and laugh off this type of behaviour. It's an expression of power and dominance not bantz. People talk to often about the the person exposing himself but not enough about the feelings of the victim. The person who may feel threatened and violated - who has been co-opted into someone else's fetish and control games.

www.telegraph.co.uk/women/life/flasher-not-victimless-crime/
(not sure if this is behind the paywall so here is an extract)
"My heart was beating so fast I remember it taking hours to calm down. I was only about 100 metres from my flat, so I legged it there and immediately rang the police. Within 20 minutes there were three male police officers in my kitchen. They took a description but it was clear they thought it was a dirty old man; a bit of a joke. One told me the best tactic if flashed was to point at “it” and laugh. It didn’t feel funny.

I never heard anything more from the authorities. But those few seconds changed the way I felt about living on my own. Till then, I’d loved the freedom and independence. Afterwards, I was wary. I’d walk with my keys out, ready as a weapon. If I saw a man walking towards me I would cross the road; heart hammering. It eroded my sense of safety in the world. And I was one of the lucky ones. Nothing bad happened to me. But it was just that sense it could have…"

@Handsoffstrikesagain

dances are you kidding? Would you feel the same if your son or daughter he exposed himself to?

If my son was an adult he'd be perfectly capable of dealing with it himself. We would both laugh. What a strange question.

@picklemewalnuts

Is it back in the news again? I read a thread on it here ages ago. I was shocked and disgusted. At best, it's puerile behaviour which has the potential to traumatise people. At worst, it's predatory behaviour.

How can it be brushed over?

I think that is the (charitable) way of summing it up for me.

The best case is that Barrowman did not traumatised anyone due to sheer good fortune, and needs to go back to school (metaphorically speaking of course - people who expose themselves should be barred from ever being with kids) for 12 years to do the growing up that he so spectacularly failed at the first time.

The worst case is, of course, pretty damn bad.

One could make an argument that this would be true if he was guilty of regular random hugging, the penis this kinda makes it worse believe it or not.

at laughing off sexual assault in the workplace, hilarious.

I have a loathing of gay men that use that as a cover to do or say outrageous things on the basis that if it is challenged, the challenger is either homophobic, or at least up tight.
I had that battle in a bloody office where I genuinely felt that as a woman who started work in the 1980s, progress had been made against men feeling it appropriate to comment on breast size or physical appearance.
Apparently in the 2000s it's absolutely fine to do so, and to dominate any company socials with terrible behaviour as long as you are male and gay.

@DancesWithTortoises what a vile comment. It's all too clear what you think of victims of sexual assault.

I think there's a lot of denial going on with this stuff. If you've enjoyed watching JB over the years (and Dr Who andTorchwood are series that people get quite personally invested in) it's a big mental shift to see him as an offender and so have to reframe all those happy and very personal memories. Hence people reach for the excuses- it doesn't count because he's gay or it was just a laugh or he apologised.

You see the same thing with older people and the behaviour of stars in the 60s and 70s. So many excuses, so much wilful ignorance. It's less about protecting the star and more about protecting your own memories and sense of self.