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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To be astounded people are defending John Barrowman

211 replies

GoldFrankensteinAndGrrr · 04/10/2021 07:20

Or that they ever did, but particularly in the current climate.

Defending/diminishing the actions of a man whose colleagues have repeatedly said has exposed himself at work? Really? If he worked at Sainsbury's and did it there would it be ok too?

Some of the excuses I've heard include he's gay so he didn't fancy them, what's the problem/it was just a laugh/he's in showbusiness, it's different and so on. No. It's not. Assault is assault and dismissing it or justifying it, or implying that women need to lighten up and get a sense of humour, normalises his actions and validates others who do similar - it's just messing about/a bit of fun, after all.

I cannot believe that anyone would think it's ok to slap your penis on a colleague's body while at work, but apparently some people do. Bonkers.

OP posts:
KaptainKaveman · 04/10/2021 08:13

100% agree OP.

Who on earth are the 7% telling you YABU???? Hmm

GoodnightGrandma · 04/10/2021 08:14

My DD has recently left a job because the boss was winding her up, constantly doing stuff to irritate her.
Turns out he’s poking her boobs and bum. I said that’s sexual assault, she says it can’t be because he’s gay and just messing about. That’s how he gets away with it, hiding behind his sexuality 😡

TheNatureOfTheCatastrophe · 04/10/2021 08:15

The reason Indecent exposure is a serious crime isn't because seeing a man's penis is inherently harmful. It's so serious because it comes with the implication of threats of rape or coerced sex.

That's why Noel Clarke and Harvey Weinstein's behaviour is horrifying and very damaging while JB's behaviour is "merely" creepy, unacceptable and cause for disciplinary action.

Original poster
GoldFrankensteinAndGrrr · 04/10/2021 08:18

@KaptainKaveman

100% agree OP.

Who on earth are the 7% telling you YABU???? Hmm

The same sort of people on Twitter wanging on about feminazis, women can't take a joke, they're just jealous, etc. Bit disappointing that MN, a site primarily used by women, attracts some people who feel the same.
OP posts:
CharityDingle · 04/10/2021 08:19

@TheNatureOfTheCatastrophe

It's not OK, not remotely OK, and the Doctor Who producers seem to have let it pass for far too long (as I understand it one of the producers on Torchwood finally intervened to prevent it a few years later).

In context the women in question don't seem to have found it upsetting or threatening, and I do think that makes a big difference to how I'd approach it and how I think of Barrowman. But seeing it treated so lightly might well have served to lower the inhibitions of Noel Clarke, who did go on to behave in a way that a lot of women found very distressing and threatening.

Or the women felt they had to pretend not to be upset, perhaps?
Original poster
GoldFrankensteinAndGrrr · 04/10/2021 08:20

Or the women felt they had to pretend not to be upset, perhaps?

This is my feeling, too.

OP posts:
notacooldad · 04/10/2021 08:22

I totally agree with you OP.

debbieupper9 · 04/10/2021 08:25

Come on 7% do share your thoughts, enjoy a bit of indecent exposure do you?

Mothersister · 04/10/2021 08:28

@TheNatureOfTheCatastrophe

It's not OK, not remotely OK, and the Doctor Who producers seem to have let it pass for far too long (as I understand it one of the producers on Torchwood finally intervened to prevent it a few years later).

In context the women in question don't seem to have found it upsetting or threatening, and I do think that makes a big difference to how I'd approach it and how I think of Barrowman. But seeing it treated so lightly might well have served to lower the inhibitions of Noel Clarke, who did go on to behave in a way that a lot of women found very distressing and threatening.

What did Noel Clarke do. I get a very creepy vibe off him on bake off.
TheQueef · 04/10/2021 08:30

Different Noel MotherS

mamma2013 · 04/10/2021 08:30

Bake off is noel fielding lol

Original poster
GoldFrankensteinAndGrrr · 04/10/2021 08:32

@Mothersister Noel Clarke, not Noel Fielding. Noel F is lovely (I've him a few times via friends who have worked with him).

OP posts:
Lalliella · 04/10/2021 08:36

I always thought that Mr Blobby character was a bit off on that show!

Sorry. Totally agree with you OP. Bet if a women hadn’t laughed she’d have been accused of being a prude. Different times? Oh what a laugh it was back then.

trancepants · 04/10/2021 08:37

A funny thing is, a couple of days ago I was listening to a podcast in which a gay man was talking about how much he hates it when women grab his hands and put them on their boobs. He has zero interest in boobs, especially in touching those of some random strangers. But that it's something that happens to him quite a bit on nights out. The woman on the podcast said it's a form of sexual assault. And while there is a difference due to strength and potential threat between a woman grabbing a man to touch her and a man doing it to a woman. It is technically an assault. And at the root of it, is men like Barrowman pushing this idea that gay men love to have a feel of a woman's boobs and that it's a great fun, harmless, sexless thing to do.

It's something that is an assault on the women he touches. It's something that lowers women's barriers and makes life easier for men like Noel Clarke. And it's also something that neuters and dehumanises gay men in the eyes of some people. The vast majority of whom just want to go about their lives with no interest in touching anyone's boobs.

ButterflyAway · 04/10/2021 08:39

As a society we’re indoctrinated to accept this kind of behaviour for men or be thrown out in the dark and labelled a trouble maker. People accept it because it’s easier than challenging it. “It’s only a joke! He didn’t really mean to sexually assault her, and anyway, didn’t you see what she’s wearing?!” is so much easier than “he’s a serial sex offender, we should take action.”

Fairyliz · 04/10/2021 08:41

I used to belong to a sports group run by a gay man who carried out several sexual assaults in the name of ‘banter’.
I spoke to several of the mainly female group whose attitude was it’s just fun and implied I was homophobic.
So in the end I just left and didn’t complain because I knew I would come out of it badly.

Naunet · 04/10/2021 08:46

Cant stand the arrogant creep. And even if he genuinely was just trying to be funny (my fucking arse), so what? Do women have a clause in their contracts that they must laugh at men’s inappropriate, unfunny “jokes”?,

leavesthataregreen · 04/10/2021 08:46

If there were ever any doubt about what he was doing, some of his colleagues pointed out he only ever did it to women or to cast and crew members of lower status than him. People who couldn't threaten his power base if they didn't like it. Tell you all you need to know. And if a man shoving his willy onto a female co-worker's shoulder is OK because he's gay and therefore doesn't fancy her is their best line of argument... Hmm

PineapplePasta · 04/10/2021 08:46

He's done it for years, not just on Dr who, there's clips of him talking about getting his cock out in West end shows. He's a perv who clearly doesn't know how to behave amongst others and shouldn't be allowed on TV.

Pinklioness · 04/10/2021 08:47

@TheNatureOfTheCatastrophe

The reason Indecent exposure is a serious crime isn't because seeing a man's penis is inherently harmful. It's so serious because it comes with the implication of threats of rape or coerced sex.

That's why Noel Clarke and Harvey Weinstein's behaviour is horrifying and very damaging while JB's behaviour is "merely" creepy, unacceptable and cause for disciplinary action.

It's also the fact that there's no implied consent there. For instance, if I'm on certain beaches, I might expect to see both men and women naked. That wouldn't bother me in the slightest as it's not out of context, and there's implied consent that if you're on those particular beaches, people might be naked. However, in the supermarket, at work, in the street, there's no expectations of seeing a penis and therefore there's no consent. Which is the EXACT POINT.

They do it because they want to make you uncomfortable, not because they feel more comfortable naked. Your discomfort is what they get off on which is why it's unpleasant and bullying behaviour. It's not a joke, you're the joke.

People who do this are not nice. There should be zero tolerance. And I can't bear (particularly women) people who defend it either. It makes it so much harder for other women to assert their boundaries.

GrimDamnFanjo · 04/10/2021 08:49

@Megan2018

He’s a disgrace. As is Chris Evans who regularly did/does the same (in the 90’s at least, can’t comment on now). He was DH’s boss for over a decade when he worked in TV production. I can’t say more detail but it’s appalling that he’s still allowed to work.
Yep. There's a bio out there that also points out he's flashed on screen....
MrsOvertonsWindow · 04/10/2021 08:49

Well said OP. This is predatory behaviour and Barrowman's claims that it's just "bantz" is the argument of offensive men everywhere.

Original poster
GoldFrankensteinAndGrrr · 04/10/2021 08:52

@Fairyliz

I used to belong to a sports group run by a gay man who carried out several sexual assaults in the name of ‘banter’. I spoke to several of the mainly female group whose attitude was it’s just fun and implied I was homophobic. So in the end I just left and didn’t complain because I knew I would come out of it badly.
This, like lots of posts on this thread, is so depressing.

I naively thought until fairly recently that the whole 'saucy banter' bullshit had been left in the last century, after having a bit of a resurgence in the 90s. Christ was I wrong. And fuck knows what led me to think that in the first place.

Nothing changes and nor will it while people are defending people like JB.

OP posts:
AbstractEim · 04/10/2021 08:54

I worked in film/TV when I was early 20s to mid 30s. This type of behaviour is pretty common, it’s a very male dominated environment and if you don’t pretend it’s a joke and laugh it off as a woman you’d find yourself being considered difficult and never getting any future work. The crew are just as bad as the ‘talent’.

I had male colleagues trying to get into my hotel room when we were on location, constant sexual ‘banter’, lots of men wanting ‘hugs’, mostly married men with kids who were in their 40s+ Propositioning me for sex. One married man at work ‘fell in love’ with me and made my life a misery despite his teenage son working alongside us who’d then question me what was going on. It was awful. Not sure what gets into these middle aged men, many of them seem completely unable to have a professional working relationship with young women without turning into sexual predators. I think the environment enhanced this type of behaviour, plus working long hours in confined spaces and often working away from home for long periods. If the directors and producers were male it was often noticeably worse.

I worked with lots of lovely men too who weren’t creepy, you could tell the dodgy ones a miles off as all women on set would keep their distance. It was especially difficult if the ‘star’ was one of these men as directors/producers would let them get away with anything to keep them happy.

GnomeDePlume · 04/10/2021 08:55

I think flashing is too often seen as a minor offense.

There certainly used to be the view that someone flashing wouldnt escalate. However flashing at someone is already probably an escalation. They will have started by exposing themselves away from where they will be caught, gradually building confidence. It would not surprise me if JB started by 'being caught' exposed in his dressing room.

It is all about dominance I can do this and you cant do anything about it. He is doing this to shock, offend, diminish his victim. I guess all his victims have been female and/or lower down in the hierarchy than him.