Why is UK so child unfriendly?

[bezabez]

Hi! I am foreign person living in the UK for the past 15 years.

I have noticed that the attitudes towards children are really strange in this country. Generally kids aren't accepted to be kids. They are expected to be quiet (ish) if out and about eg in a restaurant or a cafe, women don't breastfeed often in public (UK has the lowest rate of breastfeeding in the world) and they are expected 'to do as you're told' - that's a weird expression in itself tbh and to behave and never show a wild side. If on a train or other public spaces people tend not to engage with them even with babies (where I'm from there would be talking and smiling and general admirations) or tthey make faces, huffing and puffing etc if the children 'misbehave'.

Also parents complain A LOT about having children, sometimes as a form of a banter as these are socially acceptable jokes. Especially during the holidays.

On top of that there aren't many affordable childcare options or things like holiday camps and clubs (I know they exist in bigger cities sometimes but it isn't the same).

Overall it's no place for young people!

Does it come from the Victorian 'kids are to be seen not heard' thing?

Again where I'm from kids are celebrated as the future here they are mostly treated as inconvenience.

This forum will make it seem worse OP

He breastfeeding rate is low because there’s crap all support in the early days for it, not because women don’t want to feed their children in public.

Teaching children boundaries and how they should behave in public is no bad thing. The park is a great place for them to let off a wild side. A cafe or a train, not so much.

Lack of affordable childcare is the fault of the government, and that is a big problem. Do you have a good system where you are from for affordable childcare?

I don’t think it’s so much the case that women are coy about breastfeeding in public, it’s just that we have really low rates of breastfeeding for a myriad of reasons.

The above poster is correct, though: MN does not tend to be particularly tolerant about or kind towards little children.

You will likely get a lot of abuse, op. But as a Brit who has been living abroad for ten years, I understand your point.
People don't go as far to interact with stranger's kids where I live, but the culture surrounding children is very different to the UK nonetheless

I agree with some of your points but not at all about people not interacting with babies - you can't go anywhere here with a baby without people stopping and talking to them*. 90% of my friends also breastfed in public but given the dire breastfeeding rates (1% of babies exclusively breastfed at 6m) you're right in that you don't see this a lot.

*This might be dependent on where you live though. I asked a friend in London and she said no one talked to her and her baby which rather blew my mind. I live in a friendly northern town. People also talk to my toddler every single time we go out.

No they’re not celebrated as the future here are they! Where are you from op?

I take my children to wild open beaches or countryside to run free, they are expected to sit through a meal in a restaurant. I breast fed in public and in over 4 years of it cumulatively no one ever said anything or even looked disapproving . The UK has people living on the whole quite close to each other so I teach them to be respectful and quiet when it might disturb other people. I live in the north and completely disagree about people not engaging with children, it's very normal here but there is definitely a north south divide.

Children being expected behave in restaurants is far from unique to the UK. It's a good thing

Compared to what country? I find the UK far more child friendly than many European countries. In my experience we have great access to baby change, kids menus, spacious tables, kids activities, pram spaces and activities than any other city I've been to. Also, try the US... Even Orlando wasn't great, with limited high chairs, menu choices abs general attitudes to smaller children.

Really? Perhaps it's where in the country you are? I'm also in the north of England and all three of my children got masses of attention from strangers as babies and toddlers (including current baby).

I've also never had a problem breastfeeding in public. Unlike in Greece where I was asked to face a wall so no one could see.

I never really got the difference until my 8 year old broke a plate at a posh restaurant in Spain. We were telling her off as we'd been telling her not to mess with it but waitress was over in a moment to give her a hug and man from next table gave her another plate. And I thought 'oh she's a distressed child and that's what they see, not a parenting failure - you're showing us up!'

I sometimes feel that children aren't valued as they're seen as 'women's things' and women aren't valued and are also excluded from formulating policy. This despite the fact that the majority of mothers also do paid work outside the home, so are involved in all facets of life. There does seem to be so much negativity about children and young people.

What is wrong with children learning how to behave?

I think people in this country love to see children running around in a playground, at the beach, in the countryside etc, but don't want to see that behaviour in a restaurant or cafe. I don't understand how that is a problem.

I really disagree about lack of engagement with children, but maybe your experience is different.

Depends on where you're from. I lived abroad for a long time and children in the country I lived in were FAR quieter, expected to behave and just generally get on with things and fit into society seamlessly. Childcare was often insufficient, so many women with young children were forced to work part-time.

Only a few differences I can think of, which would make the UK more friendly in coparison:
An expectation that children socialise with adults when invited elsewhere, rather than leaving the adults to it.
Restaurant food allowing child-friendly portions of the menu (appropriately discounted as less food), rather than the crappy options given to children here.

And yes, spent two weeks of my holiday abroad changing nappies on my knee and feeding DS on there too because not a single place had a highchair or changing table, unlike here where it's basically a given.

They were friendly though to be fair.

Where are you in the uk op? Your experience is not like mine at all. It took ages to get round a supermarket because of strangers gushing over my dcs when they were babies. Run wild in parks, woods, beaches, soft play - makes sense not to in a restaurant.

People seem to accept any old shit (literally) to make places dog friendly. But kid’s should be seen and not heard.

I really hate the performance moaning about your kids too.

What's wrong with children being expected to be quietish in restaurants or cafes? It's respectful to other diners
I'm in the south and everyone makes a fuss of children
Where on earth are you???

Yanbu. The UK is hugely child-unfriendly. Most native Brits don't see it, because they have nothing to compare it to.

Agree with a pp that in several years of breastfeeding I've never had even a negative glance that I'm aware of and in fact on a few occasions had lovely ladies around my mum's age give me encouraging words. That meant a lot.

I think the UK is actually pretty good - you can always get a high chair, baby change in every restaurant or coffee shop (though sometimes annoying when it's only in the ladies loo), good accessibility rules means its easier to get round with the buggy compared to lots of EU countries I've visited. There's a time and place to run round and lunch time in the local gastro pub is not it. Most people are generally friendly and helpful in my experience.

We're British and like to complain, it's why we talk about the weather so much. I'd huff about a noisy child on a train in the same way I'd huff about a pissed up stag do or someone taking a very long phone call. It's all just noise.

Compared to where? Apart from childcare (which is a whole different thread) I don't recognise what you say. Kids should behave in restaurants but that's the same in every country - go to any European country and children are behaving in restaurants, also I breastfed mine in public no issues at all, and as for not engaging with them - I always do. I take it you have never been to Paris, it's the only place my children were made to feel very unwelcome

I'm in the cold, unfriendly south and (gasp) people talk to babies here too...

* He breastfeeding rate is low because there’s crap all support in the early days for it*

^In my circle of friends those that gave up breastfeeding did so because they didn’t want to do night feeds and/or was convinced (by others experience) that baby would sleep better being bottle fed.

Interestingly for a forum for mums, Mumsnet hates children. Go onto any thread about children being a little bit naughty and some of the comments will make your hair curl.