Why is UK so child unfriendly?

[bezabez]

Hi! I am foreign person living in the UK for the past 15 years.

I have noticed that the attitudes towards children are really strange in this country. Generally kids aren't accepted to be kids. They are expected to be quiet (ish) if out and about eg in a restaurant or a cafe, women don't breastfeed often in public (UK has the lowest rate of breastfeeding in the world) and they are expected 'to do as you're told' - that's a weird expression in itself tbh and to behave and never show a wild side. If on a train or other public spaces people tend not to engage with them even with babies (where I'm from there would be talking and smiling and general admirations) or tthey make faces, huffing and puffing etc if the children 'misbehave'.

Also parents complain A LOT about having children, sometimes as a form of a banter as these are socially acceptable jokes. Especially during the holidays.

On top of that there aren't many affordable childcare options or things like holiday camps and clubs (I know they exist in bigger cities sometimes but it isn't the same).

Overall it's no place for young people!

Does it come from the Victorian 'kids are to be seen not heard' thing?

Again where I'm from kids are celebrated as the future here they are mostly treated as inconvenience.

I don't recognise my experience of bring up kids in the UK in anything in your OP. We are in London and it's great for kids, lots of kid-centric things to do, people are generally friendly towards them and I've never felt any judgment from breastfeeding in public.

I don't get your point about restaurants either, why wouldn't you want your kids to behave and not disturb other people? Surely taking kids to restaurants is part of their socialisation so why not teach them what is expected? OP maybe you just have terribly behaved kids so get lots of judgement from people and are extrapolating that to everyone?

DC1 went to the best restaurants, bars in the evening, cinema,

Yeah non of those are the right place for babies, doesn't matter where in the country you are. Theres family friendly restaurants and there are restaurants where I really dont want a baby ruining my meal.

I like the fact Britain has both

If we had been paying to eat dinner at a Michelin rated restaurant, we wouldn’t have wanted a baby or toddler at the next table. It would have been a rare treat, to spend an evening together as individuals, not just mum and dad, with our own children at home with grandparents.

Lunch, different.

@bezabez what's your stand on letting children run round and 'be chikdren' at a church wedding?
Just curious....

[quote OhSmellyCatSmellyCat]@bezabez what's your stand on letting children run round and 'be chikdren' at a church wedding?
Just curious....[/quote]
That's why so many weddings are child free these days and why so many threads about why their little darlings aren't invited.

Its the parents fault the UK isn’t child friendly. If you let your kids go feral people aren’t going to find it charming their just going to hate them & you.

No one minds a well behaved child.

My 7 year old was praised by an elderly passenger on a cruise for his good behaviour at the table all week. While that was nice, I wouldn’t have allowed anything else. Running around where hot food and drinks are served is dangerous as well as inconsiderate. I have hauled mine out of their seat when they were younger for bad behaviour and taken them out to the car. A good talking to and ten minutes in the car and they know I mean it. Then we went back in, apologised to grandparents or whoever had invited us, and no more bad behaviour. You also need to have quiet things for them to do, sticker books, top trumps etc. A crying baby on a train or bus - no problem, it’s a baby. A noisy four year old kicking off - take them out do they learn what is not allowed, but make sure they’ve had a good run around and play before you head for the restaurant. I used to get my DS2 and his cousins out in the garden at my brothers on Boxing Day so they are burning off energy before we sit down to dinner. Worked every time. Kids had fun, run around, and are now ready to sit and eat.
We’ve had some great support in European countries with young children, especially in restaurants in France, with waiters quickly getting us a spotlessly clean high chair, moving chairs out of the way so we could get the buggy to the table etc. A wonderful restaurant in Bayeux near the river was outstanding in this respect. In return your kids are expected to sit at the table to eat without disrupting other people.

It’s a piece of cake to coo over a baby out at a cafe and yet have a society that completely fails to make any effort to support the life of a child and family. Step forward Italy, where everyone is keen to make a fuss of kids in public and yet has one of the lowest birth rates in Europe, in part due to shitty attitudes towards women making work and family life work. See also a lot of ME countries.

The UK is pretty good to be honest. And I couldn’t move after having my children for BF support.

Really? I've always found that other countries are refreshingly "grown up" feeling compared to the garish, plastic, laminated, kid-friendly mess that most UK establishments seem to be. Especially in Europe - there are still plenty of young children in restaurants, museums, etc., but people don't expect mess, rudeness and noise to be indulged as much as they seem to here in England.

Also parents complain A LOT about having children, sometimes as a form of a banter as these are socially acceptable jokes. Especially during the holidays

Welcome to the UK, complaining (whether in humour or not) is a national past time.
Have to say that I’ve never understood the complaining about kids during the holidays thing. Cheesy as it sounds I cherish every moment because before too long they’ll be grown up and this time will be lost. But generally speaking, I do like a moan!

It's a fine line - my kids hate it when we go to Spain and complete strangers think it's ok to pinch their cheeks and bang on about their twinness.

@Doodledoop

I never really got the difference until my 8 year old broke a plate at a posh restaurant in Spain. We were telling her off as we'd been telling her not to mess with it but waitress was over in a moment to give her a hug and man from next table gave her another plate. And I thought 'oh she's a distressed child and that's what they see, not a parenting failure - you're showing us up!'

??

You want to get yourself to Chester Zoo in the school holidays, op, if you'd like to enjoy indulgent British parenting at its best. I shared a moment with a fed up babirusa this week.

I think you're miles off the mark here anyway. Most children understand they need to be quieter and less active in certain situations, no matter where their parents are from. It's a universal expectation.

I agree with you OP although our abroad experience with a baby was only for a 3 week road trip. In England whenever we ate in restaurants with him the staff largely ignored him and tended to bring out his steaming hot plate of food last, having served all the adults first. Cue some noises as we feed him some food off our plates whilst cutting up his food and blowing it to cool down. Whereas during our road trip (Belgium, France, Switzerland, Italy) waiting staff would make a huge fuss over him, bring his meal out first and cool enough to eat straight away, brought him free ice creams. Sometimes even the chefs would come out to say hello or have a cuddle. We were offered many times if they could walk around with him whilst we ate our meal in peace. In a cafe in a village in the south of Italy he was even whisked away to a child’s birthday party next door even though we couldn’t speak Italian and they couldn’t speak English (he was obviously always in sight of us, he had a great time). Another time he was invited to sit on a children’s table at a restaurant with the children from another family. All the children made a fuss of him too! There was a stark difference in the attitude towards children.

@Farwest

Yanbu. The UK is hugely child-unfriendly. Most native Brits don't see it, because they have nothing to compare it to.

Examples?

Another one here in the icy cold south disagreeing. We always get lots of interaction, people are friendly and I had no problems breastfeeding in public. We do ensure if we are in a restaurant she stays seated even if she needs a colouring book etc but that's just common sense for safety and I also think decency for others. It's not doing her any harm not being able to run wild for an hour or so!

The only thing I agree on is childcare. It's too expensive but also not well paid enough! We need some subsidies here IMO.

@bezabez

About the restaurant etc it's exactly this attitude I'm talking about- they are expected to behave to be convenient to others. Yes it's important to teach them respect and table manners but it's the adults responses that I don't get, surely as an adult you know that children are they own people with their own personalities, emotions etc so won't always behave to adult standards!

THERE IS PLENTY OF JUDGMENT BUT NO HELP.

Even when you're flying there will be people complaining about babies crying. Yes it isn't pleasant to listen to but I'm sure it's even worse for the parents.

IMO they are expected to be mini adults and not really children.

No. They're expected to sit quietly and eat nicely.

I don't tend to bf in public but not because of attitudes to children, because once or twice I've noticed a man choose to sit facing and looking in my direction when I do it and I just feel vulnerable, especially now baby's six months and pops on and off.

Also with a big baby I felt people thought I was bf a much older child and judged that.
Maybe it's all in my head. But I prefer to go home or back to my car.

[quote OhSmellyCatSmellyCat]@bezabez what's your stand on letting children run round and 'be chikdren' at a church wedding?
Just curious....[/quote]
Not a wedding but at a christening recently during a regular church service we were told not to worry at all if dd was running all over the place or making noise as they were just so happy to have children in their church again. As it was I wasn't comfortable with that so we kept the noise down and played in the children's area but it was nice not to have to worry about the slightest noise.

I totally agree with you OP. I'm also from another country originally and travel a lot with the kids and I find England very unfriendly for kids. Few facilities but more so the attitude and expected behaviour

DS1 was born abroad and we lived there until he was six months. You could literally take a baby anywhere. The only place he was denied entry was my office when I took him into work and my boss went ballistic when he found out that security wouldn’t let him go in.

Same as the UK then

[quote lifehappened]@Fairyliz you obvs havnt been to the part of London I live in which is very child friendly. And friendly in general. Saying it must be London is very narrow minded! There are miserable parts and miserable people of course, same as when I lived up North.[/quote]
@lifehappened
But the op (who has only lived here 15 years) is saying the whole of the U.K. is child unfriendly.
I’m not sure why you are so defensive about me saying London is generally perceived as being unfriendly?

@DDIJ

I would have said the UK is completely child-obsessed.

I agree with this. (And think you're completely wrong op, and thus either being goady or are utterly blinkered).

My example is a few years ago I attended a 'Christmas party' with my friends in the uk and a 'Christmas party' with my friends in South Africa (exdh is SA). The uk one meant organising piles of stuff for the dc - (party games, santa etc); the SA one meant the adults got hammered whilst we had a bbq and the dc ran around entertaining themselves. Both were great, but for me really highlighted the difference in the effort put in for their children from my uk friends vs my sa friends.

I don't think the UK is unfriendly to children at all. That is certainly not my experience.
My kids have always been cooed over, given money by elderly people and had colouring books and crayons brought to them in cafes. Our hairdressers has special car shaped seats for kids and they get offered a lollypop afterwards.

It's our culture to expect certain behaviour from children in places where they may disturb adults. We are generally a reserved nation. I have 3 children of my own but still don't want to listen to children screaming or running around when I'm at the cinema or in a restaurant. I think this expectation is good. Children have plenty of opportunities to burn off energy in the parks, soft play and other places geared towards kids.

When I've been in countries like Spain where it's normal to have late family dinners, I find it really stressful to listen to when I'm trying to relax.

@Fairyliz defensive? I'm not going to pretend to agree to with you 🤣. It's a fact that where I live it's not like that. Are you struggling to understand that there are many places you have not been to so can't possibly know? I'm allowed a different opinion, that's what this forum is for