Page 31 | Why is UK so child unfriendly?

RidingMyBike · 30/08/2021 15:35

Re 'hidden' extended BFing. Other than one friend who BF her 6yo as ostentatiously and often as possible, the others who have BF past two years just aren't very visible. I only BF twice a day after nine months, and once a day after 18mo so the only person who was really aware of it was DH. Nobody outside our house would even know if I didn't mention it. The same for my colleagues who are working full time and also BFing toddlers/children. I only know because of chance remarks.
We have little interaction with HVs (no developmental checks in my area), children's centres were closed down, many of us work full time so weren't using local groups etc. Who is going to ask us about infant feeding?!

Roominmyhouse · 30/08/2021 16:08

@ADreadedSunnyDay

I think something that has been missed by the posters who think that DC need to be at the centre of it all, everywhere, all the time, with people cooing and interacting with them, is that this comes across as incredibly entitled. Some people cannot have children, some people don't want children, adults need adult space at times, and sometimes that need to be out of their home, and for all these reasons it is sometimes appropriate that adult aren't bombarded with other people's children's behaviour or expected to parent.

Exactly this.

All adults should be entitled to have child free time if they choose to whether they have their own children or not. I think it’s actually getting harder to find adult only spaces these days because everywhere has become so child friendly.

I have no problem with other people’s children in some environments. However sometimes when you go to what should be an adult place it’s very frustrating when there are children and suddenly the whole atmosphere changes. It’s unfair when there are so many family friendly places that people try and take over other places which aren’t because they feel they should be able to take their children everywhere. It’s nothing to do with hating children or them not being part of society. It’s just about having some adult only spaces.

breadwidow · 30/08/2021 17:05

@PersephoneJames you have summed up completely how I see the situ in the UK v other countries: lots of stuff for kids here but if children aren't catered for they kinda aren't expected to be there, and thus often not tolerated. The exception to the for me is non British places to eat in London as I mentioned before - there's no kids menus etc in China town or my favourite Vietnamese place but kids welcomed in terms of attitudes. This & a love of Asian food is the reason why whenever I eat out in London it tends to be Asian. I wish we had a bit more of the abroad attitude to kids: they don't need special treatment, just to be acknowledged as human beings

talkmethrough · 30/08/2021 17:13

Let's just lock children up and throw the key away according to some posters here. Children are part of our society whether you like it or not and at least they have a bedtime at some point where they go home unlike some adults who have had a bit to much to drink that can't arrange their volume or people that shout on top of each other. I prefer children to any adult diners I have just mentioned, at least children are children and they go home _eventually._The adult groups are worse especially when there's alcohol on the table! Can you imagine, I've paid for a babysitter to go and celebrate my anniversary with my husband and there's a large group celebrating someone's 60th birthday, believe me I'd rather sit next to a table with 10 toddlers than sit next to a drunken table.

GintyMcGinty · 30/08/2021 17:21

Oh look we are in the Daily Mail

www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-9939673/UK-foreign-resident-claim-country-not-child-friendly-kids-expect-told.html

rainbowmash · 30/08/2021 17:30

@Ickle37 "This is the point!! Europeans dont have soft play or basically what we call " pits of infection and bad behaviour " , we have LIFE and kids are welcome. Strangely , we dont have biters..."

Oh good lord, it's going to take me a long time to get over being told that Europe is so superior that no country there has every produced a kid who bites.

Bravo, bravo.

UserNameNameNameUser · 30/08/2021 17:33

[quote GintyMcGinty]Oh look we are in the Daily Mail

www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-9939673/UK-foreign-resident-claim-country-not-child-friendly-kids-expect-told.html[/quote]
That has to be the ultimate in lazy journalism where they can’t even get the grammar correct. What are there supposed to mean:

A UK resident said they found that the UK was not be children-friendly enough. (“Not be”????)

Some parents agreed other countries more indulgent with children ion public (“ion”???)

UserNameNameNameUser · 30/08/2021 17:33

these 🙄😅

In my defence, I’m not a journalist!

HoldingTheDoor · 30/08/2021 18:11

Oh good lord, it's going to take me a long time to get over being told that Europe is so superior that no country there has every produced a kid who bites.

Except the U.K apparently which is also in Europe so we've rather scuppered that idea.

A quick Google in French suggests that French toddlers are just as fond of a good chomp or two as their British counterparts.

Dreamstate · 30/08/2021 18:20

Its good manners not to be screaming and running about in restaurants. You choose to have children the rest of us don't need to have our evenings spoiled because of them.

Life isn't all about children and the world doesn't revolve around them either.

I think its a good thing they are taught not to be shouting and screaming otherwise they could end up like my adult neighbours who talk far too loud infsct its not talking really more like shouting to the point even with double glazing and all the windows and doors closed including internal doors I can hear there conversation word for word in the furthered point of my houses wheb they are in the garden.

Completey unnecessary and then their parents when they visit are the same so no I don't have to look too far to see why....apple didn't fall far from the tree!

Justanisland · 30/08/2021 20:46

I initially disagreed, but then reading posts and thinking about here vs some places on the continent it is markedly different.

I spent a lot of time in a country in the Mediterranean and remember countless occasions when it wasn't remotely weird for someone to rock up to some event/gathering with their small children. Where as here in similar situations it just wouldn't be done. I remember coming back from a wedding after midnight, a whole load of us stuffed into a tiny Picanto (or similar) with one of the girls breastfeeding her toddler next to me.

Here in the UK, it can feel like when you have small children that's it. Your options are something completely child focussed (softplay etc, of which we have thousands) and then 7pm child to bed, house quiet that's it. There isn't that inclusivity very much. So I can kind of relate to that feeling its unfriendly. I think it would make interesting reading if they researched cultures with that more open approach against rates of post natal depression.

juice92 · 30/08/2021 21:18

Interaction with someone else's children is a personal choice - not really fair of you to make a judgement on that - but where I am from toddlers and babies especially will always be interacted with.

In terms of restaurants, cafes and on trains etc children can still express themselves while not disrupting or interrupting other tables and as such children are expected to behave.

Childcare costs are crazy - but that is a whole conversation in of itself.

AudacityBaby · 30/08/2021 21:24

I think there’s a lot of overlap between various factors here. The UK is very child-friendly in terms of facilities, access, and the way spaces cater to children. That has, to some extent, reduced parents’ ability to expose their children to mixed experiences which are not entirely child-centric, and to increase their tolerance of experiences that are boring and adult-focussed.

The two factors together - i.e. decreasing number of adult spaces PLUS increasing inability of children to tolerate experiences where they are not being catered to - is what makes adults intolerant. Kids are frequently not well-behaved, and adults are increasingly keen to escape them and increasingly unable to do so.

What we need, ironically, is probably more truly mixed spaces that cater to more than the family market, so that kids can benefit from learning adult behaviour and adults can develop more patience around kids that are learning.

That said. I am never gonna be cooing over your child though. I pay a lot of taxes that fund their education and healthcare, if they want to refuse to treat me in my old age because I refused to play peekaboo then that’s their right.

oblada · 31/08/2021 21:03

[quote ttcissoboring]@oblada as selfish as it sounds though i didn't decide to have the kids so the parents and their needs to come out and disturb my evening is not really my issue [/quote]
It's not your issue maybe but you don't really get to choose either. Parents will go out with their kids in the evening whether you like it or not. Sometimes it may impact on your evening. Tough. My evenings have been disturbed by drunken fools. Again tough. Not much you or i can do about it. But saying "why can't they go out in the afternoon" is pretty silly I'm sure you agree. They don't because it doesn't suit them. End of.

Crikeyalmighty · 31/08/2021 21:46

We live in copenhagen- now this is a fantastically child friendly city- it’s also a great holiday if you have kids as it has white sand beaches, blue sea, wild swimming, huge amounts of lidos , 2 amazing funfairs , Tivoli is central, Bakken is 5 miles out set in woods. tons of sport including canoeing and beach volleyball , lots of camping options plus cheap funky hostels and apartments , superb public transport and great shopping both indoors and out and you can take kids anywhere without anyone batting an eyelid, including in special carts on the front of bikes- . Weather can indeed be a bit mixed but on the whole we have found summers better than the UK, less rain and less wind. The metro is all getable too on glass lifts-.with kids it’s an absolute breeze.

nonono1 · 31/08/2021 22:10

and then 7pm child to bed

@Justanisland sorry, but I don’t know why people often say this sort of thing (berating parents for putting their kids to bed at a sensible time) in such a dismissive way. My toddler needs to go to bed at 7-7.30pm because he’s shattered by that time and sleeps for 11-12 hours a night. If he was kept up until midnight at a wedding he’d be extremely grumpy and totally exhausted (and understandably so!)

Justanisland · 31/08/2021 22:42

@nonono1 wasn't a berate, just musing. I agree on the grumpy front. The latest DC have ever stayed up is 8.30pm!

I suppose midday sleeps in hot countries help to offset any grumpiness. Who knows!

Daisz · 31/08/2021 22:44

I was in a park today with my friend from a renound ultra friendly far Eastern country. Our 3 year olds were playing happily together. We were at that point the only people there. An elderly woman and her little dog came in. My friends daughter skipped up and happily asked what her little dog was called and could she say hello? My daughter soon followed. The woman blanked both children and looked visibly annoyed. Now at that point I thought about intervening, but at the same time the children were being lovely and were not doing anything wrong. It is such a sad reflection of our society that something so innocent needs to be reprimanded, I was torn in that moment. Anyway the woman huffed and puffed and announced she was off to find another park. Fine no big deal there are lots of parks. My friend was oblivious, because where she is from no such thing would occur. I explained to her a lot of people from here just don't like children and she just could not comprehend such thing. Where she is from elderly women treat children like little cherished princesses and would take great delight in a moment like that. Then my mind turned back to this thread. Yes I know people will be on here saying I should have dragged the girls away and poor little doggy, boo hoo. Just another example how in any other country you would never have to consider such a thing, but here it is defo a "Thing"!

MrsSkylerWhite · 31/08/2021 22:57

“Where she is from elderly women treat children like little cherished princesses”

Princesses?

Good grief.

ExecutiveHodCarrier · 31/08/2021 23:27

@Daisz

I was in a park today with my friend from a renound ultra friendly far Eastern country. Our 3 year olds were playing happily together. We were at that point the only people there. An elderly woman and her little dog came in. My friends daughter skipped up and happily asked what her little dog was called and could she say hello? My daughter soon followed. The woman blanked both children and looked visibly annoyed. Now at that point I thought about intervening, but at the same time the children were being lovely and were not doing anything wrong. It is such a sad reflection of our society that something so innocent needs to be reprimanded, I was torn in that moment. Anyway the woman huffed and puffed and announced she was off to find another park. Fine no big deal there are lots of parks. My friend was oblivious, because where she is from no such thing would occur. I explained to her a lot of people from here just don't like children and she just could not comprehend such thing. Where she is from elderly women treat children like little cherished princesses and would take great delight in a moment like that. Then my mind turned back to this thread. Yes I know people will be on here saying I should have dragged the girls away and poor little doggy, boo hoo. Just another example how in any other country you would never have to consider such a thing, but here it is defo a "Thing"!

You’ve had another unfriendly encounter in a park?

Ozanj · 31/08/2021 23:39

In Europe you will only find white kids get catered for. Bring a gaggle of Indian and black kids to Paris or Rome or Madrid like my friends and I often did before Lockdown, and the intolerance will soon become visible and quite loudly too.

In South America, India and East Asia little kids get snatched / raped / murdered with such regularity that parents rarely permit them to leave the safety of their presence. So you wouldn’t see pre-teens or even teens going out amongst themselves with any regularity in major cities and as such activities aren’t catered for them. In Japan kids as young as 3-5 walk home from school by themselves and always have done but if you want someone on the way to keep an eye on them you still have to pay them

ExecutiveHodCarrier · 31/08/2021 23:58

@Daisz

I was in a park today with my friend from a renound ultra friendly far Eastern country. Our 3 year olds were playing happily together. We were at that point the only people there. An elderly woman and her little dog came in. My friends daughter skipped up and happily asked what her little dog was called and could she say hello? My daughter soon followed. The woman blanked both children and looked visibly annoyed. Now at that point I thought about intervening, but at the same time the children were being lovely and were not doing anything wrong. It is such a sad reflection of our society that something so innocent needs to be reprimanded, I was torn in that moment. Anyway the woman huffed and puffed and announced she was off to find another park. Fine no big deal there are lots of parks. My friend was oblivious, because where she is from no such thing would occur. I explained to her a lot of people from here just don't like children and she just could not comprehend such thing. Where she is from elderly women treat children like little cherished princesses and would take great delight in a moment like that. Then my mind turned back to this thread. Yes I know people will be on here saying I should have dragged the girls away and poor little doggy, boo hoo. Just another example how in any other country you would never have to consider such a thing, but here it is defo a "Thing"!

Also - what if she was hard of hearing and couldn’t understand them? Or had had an awful day and didn’t want to speak to someone? Maybe she’d just had some bad news?

Honestly - I have two very sociable and chatty DC who love to talk to people and ask about their pets etc. But equally I understand that not everyone wants that level of conversation all the time, and I certainly don’t expect them to be treated like ‘princesses.’

AnnaDyne · 01/09/2021 07:22

@Daisz

I was in a park today with my friend from a renound ultra friendly far Eastern country. Our 3 year olds were playing happily together. We were at that point the only people there. An elderly woman and her little dog came in. My friends daughter skipped up and happily asked what her little dog was called and could she say hello? My daughter soon followed. The woman blanked both children and looked visibly annoyed. Now at that point I thought about intervening, but at the same time the children were being lovely and were not doing anything wrong. It is such a sad reflection of our society that something so innocent needs to be reprimanded, I was torn in that moment. Anyway the woman huffed and puffed and announced she was off to find another park. Fine no big deal there are lots of parks. My friend was oblivious, because where she is from no such thing would occur. I explained to her a lot of people from here just don't like children and she just could not comprehend such thing. Where she is from elderly women treat children like little cherished princesses and would take great delight in a moment like that. Then my mind turned back to this thread. Yes I know people will be on here saying I should have dragged the girls away and poor little doggy, boo hoo. Just another example how in any other country you would never have to consider such a thing, but here it is defo a "Thing"!

If I take my dogs to the park, I have zero interest in any of the toddlers there. My age is irrelevant. I'm not hard of hearing. I just don't particularly want to talk to toddlers or coo over them.

I think an awful lot of people think that because they think their toddlers are cute, the rest of us should too.

Chippingbird23 · 01/09/2021 08:22

@bezabez

Hi! I am foreign person living in the UK for the past 15 years.

I have noticed that the attitudes towards children are really strange in this country. Generally kids aren't accepted to be kids. They are expected to be quiet (ish) if out and about eg in a restaurant or a cafe, women don't breastfeed often in public (UK has the lowest rate of breastfeeding in the world) and they are expected 'to do as you're told' - that's a weird expression in itself tbh and to behave and never show a wild side. If on a train or other public spaces people tend not to engage with them even with babies (where I'm from there would be talking and smiling and general admirations) or tthey make faces, huffing and puffing etc if the children 'misbehave'.

Also parents complain A LOT about having children, sometimes as a form of a banter as these are socially acceptable jokes. Especially during the holidays.

On top of that there aren't many affordable childcare options or things like holiday camps and clubs (I know they exist in bigger cities sometimes but it isn't the same).

Overall it's no place for young people!

Does it come from the Victorian 'kids are to be seen not heard' thing?

Again where I'm from kids are celebrated as the future here they are mostly treated as inconvenience.

I’m foreign and I’ve noticed that too. I’ve also noticed how high expectations are of children and how they are extension of their parents and not allowed to be their own unique self. Im not surprised at the high level of mental health in the children in the U.K. either. However the good side is it’s not all like that just an noticeable size compared to other European countries.

karmakameleon · 01/09/2021 08:39

If I take my dogs to the park, I have zero interest in any of the toddlers there. My age is irrelevant. I'm not hard of hearing. I just don't particularly want to talk to toddlers or coo over them.

DH is a dog lover and we don’t have our own. He often shows an interest in random dogs at our local park. Usually just a friendly hello, pats the dog and maybe a short conversation if the owner is amenable. He’s never had anyone blank him, look annoyed, huff or announce that they are going to another park. Maybe this little girl was particularly annoying but on the basis of what is reported (she asked his name and asked if she could say hello) the woman was quite rude. If she didn’t want to interact she could have just said, “sorry we need to get on with our walk, don’t have time today.”