Why is UK so child unfriendly?

[bezabez]

Hi! I am foreign person living in the UK for the past 15 years.

I have noticed that the attitudes towards children are really strange in this country. Generally kids aren't accepted to be kids. They are expected to be quiet (ish) if out and about eg in a restaurant or a cafe, women don't breastfeed often in public (UK has the lowest rate of breastfeeding in the world) and they are expected 'to do as you're told' - that's a weird expression in itself tbh and to behave and never show a wild side. If on a train or other public spaces people tend not to engage with them even with babies (where I'm from there would be talking and smiling and general admirations) or tthey make faces, huffing and puffing etc if the children 'misbehave'.

Also parents complain A LOT about having children, sometimes as a form of a banter as these are socially acceptable jokes. Especially during the holidays.

On top of that there aren't many affordable childcare options or things like holiday camps and clubs (I know they exist in bigger cities sometimes but it isn't the same).

Overall it's no place for young people!

Does it come from the Victorian 'kids are to be seen not heard' thing?

Again where I'm from kids are celebrated as the future here they are mostly treated as inconvenience.

Come on OP tell us what country you are from?

My above example is when we are eating out.

I dont expect that of them in general day to day life.

America is my prediction, I’m not sure why.

@SmidgenofaPigeon has hit the nail on the head op.

I teach my 3 year old to behave nicely and do as he's told in restaurants for his own good and so he doesn't not the other customers. It's not a bad thing! He can go crazy at other places e.g the park.

Also laughing at PP’s saying it ‘must be in the south’!
I’m in the south east and I find people are very friendly when I’m out with my children! I often get stopped walking down the road as people want to talk to toddler or coo over the baby. Nearly all the pubs around here have kids play areas, children’s menus, loads of high chairs etc etc. The town I live in has endless child focused activities and clubs. I found France much more child unfriendly.
I agree about childcare costing a fortune, although loads of holiday camps around here.

I'm in the north and haven't seen those sorts of attitudes about breastfeeding, and when there's little kids about in restaurants everyone is giving them attention!

However children should be well behaved in some cafes / restaurants. They're not a place always designed for children (like soft play or a family friendly restaurant) so if the children are to be brought into there, it shouldn't impact other people trying to enjoy themselves.

I'm not sure about a baby crying on a plane being worse for the parents - we have one tiny baby scream it's head off for 8 hours on a flight to the US! IMO a baby that couldn't support its own head (so very young) shouldn't be put through a flight to the US for that length of time - and it really is unfair to other passengers. I understand people may have family abroad, but there's no need to expect people that have paid thousands for a flight to not be upset to have to spend it listening to that - I'm not sure of any other country that would react to that situation happily?

Where can’t you take a young baby in the U.K. Karma?

Maybe this is a personal experience thing. I’ve found the U.K. very child friendly. There’s no where I haven’t been able to take my children unless I wanted to go to a pub at 9pm.

Breastfeeding out and about also wasn’t a problem for me and I breastfed both for 18 months. I’d just sit wherever and feed and never had comments or looks. I once sat next to the mannequins in a window display (facing inside the shop) in the Trafford centre on a busy evening and nothing negative at all.

I do like my children to be quiet in cafes or restaurants just like I expect them to sit nicely at the table at home. So I take games with me and play with them. It’s not really safe when children run around and staff are carrying hot food and drinks is it.

We’ve travelled to. Lot of different countries with the children and whilst there are a lot of countries where people are generally friendlier or talk more to the children I think expectations of behaviour are similar. Also where I live (up north) we often get people coming over for a chat with the children and engaging with them.

'Does not annoy' that should've said

I agree childcare should be much more affordable but I think it’s quite weird you expect people to talk to random babies/toddlers in public. I don’t really like kids so I definitely wouldn’t show any interest in other people’s! However children often take an interest in my dog so I’m pleasant and chatty with them if that happens. I don’t think teaching them not to screech and run about in restaurants is a bad thing

The only place I can think where I thought they were fantastic with my DD was in Italy but it simultaneously wasn’t set up for children in some ways. I can’t talk about breastfeeding because I did it as did many mums I knew ( NCT group… very pro). I find reluctance to breastfeed weird but you can’t really express that here. I’m surprised you think “ do as you’re told” is a weird expression though. Young children are not in a position to understand the safety issues of certain things like train travel and it’s my job as the parent to keep her safe. So no riding a scooter on the train platform for example. I also want to raise a child who is respectful of other people around her - that the world doesn’t revolve around her and sitting nicely in a restaurant is expected. Of course when she was little I did that with colouring books or small quiet toys. It doesn’t mean she spent her life being straight jacketed being quiet. Actually when I think about many families I know their whole lives are operated around the children - much more so than we did as a family and I experienced as a kid. Lots of trips to play farms, cinema etc every weekend and activities after school every day. In fact the more I think about it the more I don’t recognise your description.

Move haha not love

From personal experience, I still breastfeed 11.5 month old DC, but I rarely fed outside as she was a silly feeder and would be so easily distracted so I was very much confined to inside for feeds! Generally the early breastfeeding support can be poor so that doesn't help either.

But yes, Mumsnet can at times be unfriendly about small children sometimes and they are often seen as the parents inconvenience to others.

Also childcare systems are extortionate and yet the staff are not respected or paid well for such an important job.

I’ll also add that I breastfed both dc in public, no issues. There’s a lack of support around new mothers and breastfeeding but I don’t think that’s to do with the U.K. not being child friendly.

This is very area dependent though. Yes, I'd expect my child to behave in a cafe/restaurant (age appropriately - wouldn't expect them to sit still for hours when tiny, and would things like colouring stuff so they have something to do). They can run free at the park etc.
BFing in public is common where I am, I often see women doing it, I did it myself and never any negative comments (which I did experience when giving a bottle instead).
People often smile and interact with DD, from babyhood. And this is the unfriendly SE! People interact more if you have a kid with you.
Lots of childcare available here - it's often expensive but I had several holiday clubs to choose from this summer.

I'm in the South and found people very friendly when mine were little

I take it you are living in London op where everyone appears to be unfriendly to children and adults alike.
Go up north with a baby and you won’t be able to get far without someone interacting with you.
I expect then you will be posting about weirdos and paedos looking at your baby.

It isn't unfriendly to expect children to behave in public. It's anti-social to let them run riot, as some do.

On the continent a certain standard of behaviour is expected and so it should be here.

@bezabez

About the restaurant etc it's exactly this attitude I'm talking about- they are expected to behave to be convenient to others. Yes it's important to teach them respect and table manners but it's the adults responses that I don't get, surely as an adult you know that children are they own people with their own personalities, emotions etc so won't always behave to adult standards!

THERE IS PLENTY OF JUDGMENT BUT NO HELP.

Even when you're flying there will be people complaining about babies crying. Yes it isn't pleasant to listen to but I'm sure it's even worse for the parents.

IMO they are expected to be mini adults and not really children.

I think with the restaurant it depends on the context. Pizza express at 5pm is different to a fancy place at 8pm. I think in the latter case it’s reasonable to expect children to behave for the convenience of others.

Flights is a tricky one because it’s very stressful for the parents and not their fault, but equally it is excruciating for the other passengers. I don’t think that’s a UK thing though? An internal flight in the USA was when I came across the most hostility to a crying child, to the point people were actually remonstrating with the parents (which really helped as you can imagine!)

THERE IS PLENTY OF JUDGMENT BUT NO HELP.

This sounds like a description of MN to me .

I dunno. I think that there’s more cooing over babies in Greece/Turkey/Israel, but broadly I’m happy with expectations of children’s behaviour in the UK.

OP You think that strangers should help with other people's children? That's an interesting perspective. I assume that would be seen as interfering and would be very unwelcome but maybe I'm wrong.

I think that the UK is very child friendly. For example every attraction I visit seems to be catered for families these days rather than other types of visitors. The National Trust seem to be having a big push on this recently.

Reading your update, you seem a bit odd to be honest. I'm not sure why you think that children being expected to behave in a restaurant is bad, and if anyone tried to "help" me when my kids ere playing up I would ask them to kindly fuck off! How bizarre

YANBU I know what you mean op

@Fairyliz lol! Been to every part of London have you? That must have taken some time 🤣🤣🤣

Stop with the stupid London comments. You clearly haven’t been to many parts of it.