Why is UK so child unfriendly?

[bezabez]

Hi! I am foreign person living in the UK for the past 15 years.

I have noticed that the attitudes towards children are really strange in this country. Generally kids aren't accepted to be kids. They are expected to be quiet (ish) if out and about eg in a restaurant or a cafe, women don't breastfeed often in public (UK has the lowest rate of breastfeeding in the world) and they are expected 'to do as you're told' - that's a weird expression in itself tbh and to behave and never show a wild side. If on a train or other public spaces people tend not to engage with them even with babies (where I'm from there would be talking and smiling and general admirations) or tthey make faces, huffing and puffing etc if the children 'misbehave'.

Also parents complain A LOT about having children, sometimes as a form of a banter as these are socially acceptable jokes. Especially during the holidays.

On top of that there aren't many affordable childcare options or things like holiday camps and clubs (I know they exist in bigger cities sometimes but it isn't the same).

Overall it's no place for young people!

Does it come from the Victorian 'kids are to be seen not heard' thing?

Again where I'm from kids are celebrated as the future here they are mostly treated as inconvenience.

We haven't taken our DC abroad on holiday since they were much younger (8 months) due to Covid (they're now 3) so I can't comment from personal experience on how I've found children are treated in other counties as opposed to the UK, since a baby is very different from a young child.

However, I remember being amazed pre-DC at how children in some countries seem to run around in restaurants and cafes where hot food is being served. So dangerous and annoying for the waiters and I'm quite pleased, not least from a safety perspective, that it's not really tolerated here. These places are not playgrounds.

I agree OP. I think if you’ve not experienced it in other cultures it’s hard to image.

It’s not about having high chairs in cafes, it’s the fundamental attitude to children and mothers. In the UK it’s an attitude of individualism and tolerance, as long as you are seen and not heard.

Our culture of breastfeeding has basically been lost in the way that it hasn’t in other places. It’s not the norm, even if people manage it successfully. In general people don’t understand it as a biological function or why someone would want to breastfeed. Mothers are likely be barraged with a load of bullshit advice about four hour routines and rod for your own back. It undermines them from the start.

If your child misbehaves you are scrutinised for how you react and judged. Every child is judged as a potential annoyance and how each situation plays out is just how well the mother (usually) manages them.

The attitude to mothers is ‘well you chose this so don’t moan and just get on with it’. It’s all very negative and not like I’ve seen in other places.

@Blitzes

I think most of the OPs post is smoke and mirrors and what she’s really upset about is someone has called out her poor parenting of her little darlings when they’ve been running around like wild animals and she’s at there doing sweet FA about their behaviour

Bingo!

Expecting people to behave suitably for their environment doesn’t make somewhere unfriendly to children. Children don’t need to be badly behaved or loud to enjoy themselves!

There are loads of activities and things for people to do with children. To the point when some children end up with lives over planned rather than enjoying free time!

I’m not a parent so very broad personal observations here, but I’ve lived in and have family in one of the countries that is always mentioned in these sorts of discussions, Italy. It always seems to me that the concept of childhood is quite different there. Children are far more included in activities. There is no great dividing line between what children do and what adults do, with obvious exceptions. But they are expected to behave accordingly. I’ve witnessed my nephew sitting quietly through interminable family meals where he was the only child there - and felt quite sorry for him actually! His parents would never have tolerated him tearing around restaurants or similar behaviour. Similar with other friends and family.

It’s definitely not the case that Italian kids by and large do whatever they like and everyone smiles fondly at loud or naughty behaviour. One of the only times I saw children running around while people were eating was notable because a priest shouted at them!

(In other ways this nephew was quite babied - his mum was cutting up all his food for him until he was about 11!)

I think there is a direct correlation between some ‘child friendly’ countries, ‘mother worship’ and misogyny.

Many of these countries where people are cooing over children who are still running around restaurants at 10pm have cultures where the mother is expected to look after the kids, their mother in law and own aged parents, provide cooked from scratch meals for their husband every day and clean etc with no help. There will be no childminders or anything as the mother is expected to do it all themselves. And if your husband gives you a slap you are taught to keep it quiet. I’d rather live in non-child friendly U.K. thanks.

@louise987

Compared to what country? I find the UK far more child friendly than many European countries. In my experience we have great access to baby change, kids menus, spacious tables, kids activities, pram spaces and activities than any other city I've been to. Also, try the US... Even Orlando wasn't great, with limited high chairs, menu choices abs general attitudes to smaller children.

I agree with this. Great facilities for children in the UK compared with some of the countries I've traveled to. I've never been to the USA, so can't comment on this.

I've never seen children in cafes in Italy and Spain and NZ etc running about, they are expected to sit nicely. Same on public transport.

I breast fed in public all the time, lots of places advertised that they were breast feeding friendly.

I engage with my children and other children when I'm out and about, if it feel appropriate. In general in the UK people seem to not talk to 'strangers' and keep themselves to themselves, rather the than this being directed at children.

Purple don't touch each other's children in the UK, I do think that is a big difference. So I don't think people push a stranger's kid on the swing, and would be nervous to comfort a crying children physically.

@HurryUpAndWait23

YANBU.

I've heard this a lot from Spanish friends in the past.

I'm very much a person who is paranoid that people think my kids are bad so it's constantly shhhhhh, be quiet! Sit still! Do as you are told! Stop it!

Expecting them to act like adults.

I was very envious of Spanish people who let their children be children.

This post is interesting to me as I wondered if that's where the OP is from. As a nanny who's looked after Spanish children from a few families over the years, I found their behaviour shocking 🤷🏽‍♀️ screaming and hitting their parents, the oldest I've seen kids do this was 9! Also no/late bedtimes, that's fine if you want to have your family this way but I don't want to hang out with people late into the night with badly behaved children. But hey, 3/4 families isn't indicative of an entire country.

And FWIW I'm not British either, but you do notice cultural differences to treating children and how they treat you around the world

I agree. If you have a big family you're being selfish. If you are a stay at home Mum you aren't contributing. If your children are quiet they're being "good".

The way children and families have been treated during the pandemic is awful. Kids education sacrificed and parents expected to work from home and do childcare simultaneously, usually with no allowances made.

I used to live in Italy where people interact a lot with babies and toddlers on the bus. Parents also often let them run wild (but start yelling at them if someone else points out they are running wild). But hitting children is also really common and I saw a fair few pretty awful things while I lived there. I'd say that was pretty child un-friendly.

@HurryUpAndWait23

YANBU.

I've heard this a lot from Spanish friends in the past.

I'm very much a person who is paranoid that people think my kids are bad so it's constantly shhhhhh, be quiet! Sit still! Do as you are told! Stop it!

Expecting them to act like adults.

I was very envious of Spanish people who let their children be children.

My experience of 'Spanish children being Spanish' was on holiday in a non-tourist flat in Spain. Pool and park in the middle. Day after day, there were Spanish dc playing in the (deep) pool, as young as about 3, not a parent in sight. Sure, some of them will probably reach adulthood raving about their freedom in childhood. Some won't get there.

YANBU but its not obvious if you only travel abroad on annual holidays and think that "Kids menus" are some kind of bonus rather than a cheap way for restaurants to provide children with second rate food.

Agree on the "Judgement without help" thing too. Not unique to the UK but certainly very common here. That feeling of walking into a restaurant with DC and before you being seated the vibes of "oh gods children" and sour looks waft around and create tension. That tension causes half the problems and I think does come from the "seen and not heard" culture.

Have you left the house recently? In England it’s the summer holidays and there are kids laughing and joking and exploring on every corner I pass at the moment.

I agree childcare costs are unrealistically high and unaffordable for many but that’s the only thing I can relate to.

I expect my children to sit politely through a meal but while they are young I tend to avoid venues that are not geared towards families

I totally feel the opposite way. I feel that children in the UK are considered the centre of the world and I've never experience this abroad, and I've lived in different countries for years. I find here that kids are deemed to be gentle souls who should be free to express themselves when and how they wish and anything said to them is risking to traumatise them.

Kids abroad are all in all so much better behaved in public and if they are not, they are told off immediately and that's that, rather than the gentle 'darling, could you please quiet down just a little bit so no to upset people' which is completely ignored, followed by mum smiling helplessly, expecting sympathy because her child is paying no attention to what she is saying.

I love kids, I found them endearing and fun, but recently, I've come to just want to avoid them. From the gym changing rooms and showers where kids are running without a care, screaming after their mum incessantly, to kids singing at the top of their lungs in the showers, and mums doing nothing at all about it. I love to go abroad and see kids much better behaved, but also much more involved in adults' life and conversations, so I guess they don't feel so desperate for their parents' attention.

"Judgement without help"? What help do you want? I would not be happy if my child was having a tantrum and someone came over to try and "help".

Children need to be taught how to behave appropriately in different situations.

A restaurant is not an appropriate place for children to be yelling and running around. It simply isn't. Equally, it would not be appropriate to require a child to sit nicely on a bench in the park and not go play on the slide or run round.
There's a little thing called consideration.
Being a child does not mean your parents have no responsibility for helping you to learn to share space and be considerate of others and know when it is appropriate to run round playing and shouting.
Park yes.
Funeral no.
Beach yes.
Theatre no
Soft play yes
Restaurant no.
It's not a difficult concept now is it?

I am from Germany and when DD was a baby/toddler I found it hard to breastfeed in public or even find a changing room in a shopping center or restaurant.

Here, I always was able to do this.

There wasn't a lot to do with children in museums or attractions compared to the UK where I never had issues taking her anywhere.

BF rates are crap due to the lack of support and knowledge, especially by health visitors.

Nothing is worse than children not behaving in restaurants, I say that as a guest and as someone with friends/relative working in them. Children do spoil a meal if they aren't behaving and are dangerous for waiter if they run around.

I hate when people talked to me, DD is a child not an exhibit in a zoo. But I am an introvert anyway.

Children can run wild in woods, parks, beaches. And I do think teaching them boundaries and general behaviour is only a good thing.

I found it harder when DD was a pre-teen as there weren't a lot of playgrounds suitable for older ones unless we were out and paid for entry to a farm or other attractaction.

@Caramellatteplease

DC1 went to the best restaurants, bars in the evening, cinema,

Yeah non of those are the right place for babies, doesn't matter where in the country you are. Theres family friendly restaurants and there are restaurants where I really dont want a baby ruining my meal.

I like the fact Britain has both

Isn’t that the point, in the UK these places are out of bounds for babies. In the country that DC1 was born in, babies were welcome and if they caused a fuss you’d take them out. And staff would always try to help if your children were starting to fuss.

@IveGotASongThatllGetOnYNerves

Children need to be taught how to behave appropriately in different situations.

A restaurant is not an appropriate place for children to be yelling and running around. It simply isn't. Equally, it would not be appropriate to require a child to sit nicely on a bench in the park and not go play on the slide or run round.
There's a little thing called consideration.
Being a child does not mean your parents have no responsibility for helping you to learn to share space and be considerate of others and know when it is appropriate to run round playing and shouting.
Park yes.
Funeral no.
Beach yes.
Theatre no
Soft play yes
Restaurant no.
It's not a difficult concept now is it?

Exactly Well said

No help? What do you expect people to do?

People work hard and when they go out for a meal to socialise of course they don’t want to hear screaming kids, running around and being annoying generally. Not many people would. Particularly in more expensive restaurants.

If you’ve got a child thats inclined to kick off then make sure you’ve got enough to entertain them and ideally don’t put yourself in a position, such as going to an expensive restaurant, where this could be an issue. It’s not up to the people in the restaurant to entertain your kids.

No one minds a young child crying a bit and getting a bit restless in a restaurant but if they’re full blown tantruming then take them out.

Most people know their own child’s limits and where they would be ok to take them.

Flying is different as that’s not a choice as such. So I have more sympathy for parents of kids on flights and there’s not much that can be done.

Expecting people to behave suitably for their environment doesn’t make somewhere unfriendly to children. Children don’t need to be badly behaved or loud to enjoy themselves!

This, they also don’t need to be worshipped like little gods and they need to learn they are not the centre of the universe.

I think it's because British children are so badly behaved in public. Not uniformly of course but I've never seen such poor behaviour in France/Italy/Spain as I have in my local cafe. Or such mess.

Lots of people talk/ interact with babies and young children yes, however I find there’s a really negative undercurrent (or indifference) towards older tweens/ teens.

YANBU - pretty much everything you say is true.

I don't feel where I live in the UK is not child friendly.

Loads of places to go.
Loads of public events for families with children.
Cafes and restaurants galore
I breastfed everywhere and anywhere and never had a problem

I had no problem with childcare although it was eye watering expensive

Breastfeeding rates are appalling but that is due to lack of support rather than no where to feed.