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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to think that the American, British and others should return to liberate the Afghani people?

216 replies

GreatEelRun · 26/08/2021 18:31

I don’t usually do politics but my God, this situation is unacceptable. The US, the UK and whoever else was previously involved in the past 20- year restructure of Afghanistan need to return there right now, with additional support and get rid of the Taliban and Isis, no matter how long this takes.

I am utterly disgusted with our govt. The way I see it. we can return now and deal with it, or return in a few years after it’s been brought onto our own soil.

Where is the humanity in this crisis?

OP posts:
RunningFromInsanity · 26/08/2021 22:09

@youdontnome

My son is out there now. I am absolutely beside myself with worry. Perhaps you would like to send your relatives so that you can know how I feel. I however want him back asap.
My sister is also deployed out there to help with the evacuation. My stomach dropped when I heard about the airport bombings today. And then a sick part of me was relived when I heard it was ‘only’ US troops that were killed. That’s 12 more families destroyed forever.

Bring them all home.

Nandakanda · 26/08/2021 22:11

Should never have gone in there in the first place. It was George W Bush’s attempt to retaliate for 9/11 and was poorly conceived from the outset - Iraq too.

I remember seeing some old Afghan heads on Telly saying the foreigners will be gone in 20 years, and here we are.

Leave them to it along with all the silly notions of democracy, gender equality etc., which they just don’t get. And why should they?

MsJinks · 26/08/2021 22:14

It’s massively complex and I’m no Afghanistan expert. I also think there’s an argument to let countries evolve/resist/develop without the west telling them how to behave but again that’s a huge topic.
I said on the other thread ‘powers’ accept loss of lives pragmatically - bit harder when it’s beamed around the world for them. There are other areas we go interfering in that are suffering not just Afghanistan- Yemen we help supply arms, Syria hasn’t stopped, Libya is dire - we’re just watching this one in real time and it’s disturbing- but it’s all horrific and also immensely sad that life is a number only for leaders. How could we just change that? Sending troops in is clearly not an answer - plus Taliban were recognised effectively by Trump and are currrntly by some other countries - and so you can’t just send troops in for peace without their agreement without effectively declaring war on that country.
Agree it’s heartbreaking but it’s not so simple a solution as sending soldiers in.
Just going to add that whilst everyone accepts Afghans should be welcomed- and I agree - many don’t like other countries refugees since their troubles are not televised in real time and sadly I expect shortly there will be the regular depressing immigration discussions.

fallfallfall · 26/08/2021 22:16

like so many i agree it's time to pull out and let the tribes decide for themselves what they want.

maybe afghanistan, should break up into smaller "states" and find some way for their own citizens to have fulfilling lives.
their neighboring countries china pakistan and india can work at influencing progress.

Brighterblighter · 26/08/2021 22:17

"without the west telling them how to behave"....

The west through blood sweat and tears has come to basic yard sticks that we are all born free and equal.

We don't get it right.. We make huge mistakes and America has a long long way to go but we have a moral yard stick to cling too as a bottom line.
Each of us is born free... And equal.

What moral yard sticks do places like Afghanistan have?

SHKR73 · 26/08/2021 22:20

@PicsInRed

You do understand it was Trump who signed the Feb 2020 Doha Agreement with the Taliban?

Do you understand that this included pre conditions to be met and ability to extend and withdraw?

Biden could have extended or withdrawn from the agreement. He chose this, Biden chose this.

Trump is no longer president. Biden wanted this. Biden did this. The kudos for this belongs entirely to Biden.

It had already been extended. How many times should Biden extend Trumps agreement?

And no you are incorrect. Trump wanted this because he was using it as an election point. Or have you forgotten his promise to get all troops home for Christmas?

SHKR73 · 26/08/2021 22:22

@Nandakanda

Should never have gone in there in the first place. It was George W Bush’s attempt to retaliate for 9/11 and was poorly conceived from the outset - Iraq too.

I remember seeing some old Afghan heads on Telly saying the foreigners will be gone in 20 years, and here we are.

Leave them to it along with all the silly notions of democracy, gender equality etc., which they just don’t get. And why should they?

Suffer little children. Yes?
knitnerd90 · 26/08/2021 22:22

@PicsInRed

Biden says no, and with the US as lynchpin, and the presidential system as it is, that no is no.

Fuck Biden.

Trump agreed to pull out by May 2021.

The pullout is a shambles, but if we haven't managed to save Afghanistan in 20 years under 3 previous presidents, we're not going to be able to do this. Biden got handed a disaster.

JudgeJ · 26/08/2021 22:25

@Pottedpalm

This is not a problem we can solve.
No-one will solve this, or any other terrorist conflict, when they have to fight with one hand tied behind their back, ie they fight in accordance woth the Geneva Convention and the terrorists don't! Many of the Taliban were in Guantanamo but there was an outcry against that so they were let go, now the same people who wanted them out are demanding they be stopped! Get off the fence before anyone else starts this unwinnable conflict.
Biker47 · 26/08/2021 22:26

Nope, we spent lives, time and vast amounts of money trying to stabilise the region and training an Afghan National Army, an Army and government that was walked over in a matter of days by a poorer equipped and numerically inferior Taliban, it's their circus now.

RedToothBrush · 26/08/2021 22:27

I have found the whole things extremely harrowing, distressing, and down right appalling to watch on both humanitarian and political levels.

I was always against us going into Afghanistan in the first place. But hindsight is something which is utterly worthless and hollow.

I have struggled with this a lot in the past few weeks. Between Trump who made a deal and Biden who believes generally believes in returning the US to pre-wwII 'splendid isolationism' ideals (post colonial America if you will) and felt he also had no choice but to honour the deal or make the situation worse for numerous reasons its been hard to get my head around.

I think these two articles have been amongst the best to kind of make sense of why we are leaving.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-58071592?at_medium=RSS&at_campaign=KARANGA
Bilal Sarwary: 'The plane hit the tower and all our lives changed'

This is an article written by an Afghan who became a journalist and now works for the BBC. He cites the fact that the problem is that the US didnt know when to quit - they should have done years ago and they missed the opportunity for Afghans to rebuild their country.

Its a compelling article.

theprint.in/opinion/my-father-was-right-20-years-ago-governing-afghanistan-as-unified-country-was-impossible/717213/
My father was right 20 years ago — governing Afghanistan as unified country was impossible
If the US effort in Afghanistan was doomed from the start, then the return of the Taliban was always inevitable. What isn’t inevitable is Afghanistan will become a terrorist haven again.

This is an opinion piece from a journalist whose father lived in Afghanistan in the 1960s.

His father said that the Americans were taking on an impossible task from the beginning:

“So we need to stay to establish a functioning government,” I continued.
“It can’t be done,” my father explained.
He didn’t just mean that conquerors from Alexander the Great to the British Empire to the Soviet Union had failed.
He meant that even Afghans had never really run their country from the center. When my parents had been there in 1969, the king was effectively little more than the mayor of Kabul. My father remembered him driving around the putative capital city at the wheel of a Volkswagen Beetle.
On the road to Herat, my parents had encountered tribesmen who, my father recalled, were so unaware of the affairs of the country as a whole that they expressed no interest in the word “Afghanistan” — or maybe they had never heard the word at all.

The central argument being that Afghanistan hasn't really ever functioned as a single entity and is instead made up of small vying power bases of tribes that don't have a central cause nor leader to unite around. And never really have. Its food for thought in a lot of ways.

These are voices of people who know the country. And love the country. And yet they see the West as never really understanding the country.

I think one of the other really compelling arguments is knowing that the US has killed more civilians in Afghanistan than the Taliban. This gives things a different perspective.

This doesn't mean that the West hasn't betrayed and abandoned and made a pigs ear of the withdrawal. They absoluetely have fucked it up. They've thrown allies and friends to the wolves.

But the idea that we can do very much more at this point and help people stuck on the ground is perhaps naive.

I think thats the word that best sums up the last 20 years in Afghanistan full stop. Naive.

I don't know what could be done to improve the situation. I think the gross misunderstanding of the country and how it functioned culturally was the problem from the word go and little has changed.

Thats kinda the point...

...and the problem.

Brighterblighter · 26/08/2021 22:29

Judge it shows are humanity the Geneva convention but again it is true it undermines us when others fight dirty.

All we can do is Broad cast the freedoms we have now chosen to give ourselves in the west, of liberty, born free and born equal.

JudgeJ · 26/08/2021 22:29

@KingHiss

Afghanistan didn't exist 150 years ago, it's lines on a map drawn up by the west. There are many tribal areas that have no allegiance to "Afghanistan" and were separated by arbitrary rules from their families by the west. It's a shit show which no-one, not the British the Russians or the US will ever be able to suppress. Even Doctor Watson from Sherlock Holmes got wounded there in the 1870's by a Jezzail bullet. See also "Carry on up the Khyber"
Even Flashman had trouble there too!
Justanotherlurker · 26/08/2021 22:32

And no you are incorrect. Trump wanted this because he was using it as an election point. Or have you forgotten his promise to get all troops home for Christmas?

Have you forgotten that Obama pledged to remove all troops, so did Trump and so did Biden.

www.axios.com/biden-trump-taliban-deal-afghanistan-005e1d03-1477-4cc4-95c6-90629182d4f5.html

You trying to pin this on Trump is being partisan just for the sake of it, Biden was one of the few voices against Obamas surge in 2009, that doesn't excuse Biden and his intelligence handling this badly and excuse critisim, but just as now the Generals forced Bidens hands just like they did Obamas with the surge and Trumps policy.

Or have you forgotten his promise to get all troops home for Christmas?
You seem to forget Biden promising to end the forever war and wanting to bring everyone back in time for the 20th anniversary or is it just one side that uses slogans?

Brighterblighter · 26/08/2021 22:33

Biden felt he could not change trumps deal?

Very disingenuous.

It's crystal clear that Biden wants out of Afghanistan!! My goodness!

The pull out did not need to be implemented in this way.

Biden admitted he was caught short! Reports are that he runs an autocracy with no one able to talk to him.

Having people waiting in a sewer...?? With containers... Working hand in glove with the new shiny taliban....

TartanJumper · 26/08/2021 22:36

No-one will solve this, or any other terrorist conflict, when they have to fight with one hand tied behind their back, ie they fight in accordance woth the Geneva Convention and the terrorists don't! Many of the Taliban were in Guantanamo but there was an outcry against that so they were let go, now the same people who wanted them out are demanding they be stopped! Get off the fence before anyone else starts this unwinnable conflict.

Many people were held in Guantanamo for decades being tortured, with no charges brought and no trial. Is that really what we want to emulate?

MsJinks · 26/08/2021 22:36

@RedToothBrush - good post. I knew a Libyan, who told me similar about the tribal basis of his country. We shouldn’t assume western ways and structures are readily accommodated elsewhere.
I think there is a danger in assuming we have it right just because we have more apparent equalities - it’s too judgemental- the more we try and impose values the more many will cling to their own ways as well - we all do that in minor ways. I also recall reading an account from a Saudi refugee - she said we shouldn’t fool ourselves we have ‘freedom’ just the rules for obedience aren’t as clear and overt in the west as in her home country, which is an interesting point to consider.

GeorgiaMcGraw · 26/08/2021 22:39

You can't impose a liberal democracy with external force. Intervention tends to do more harm than good. Sad, but true.

Calmdown14 · 26/08/2021 22:40

And OP you were one of those people applauding our troops for the risks they took at the height of this and saluting their coffins.... though not.
As a military wife through several tours, public sympathy and support was decidedly lacking and the words 'illegal war' thrown about a lot by the misinformed who lumped the campaign in with Iraq by people with little idea what they were facing

Brighterblighter · 26/08/2021 22:41

Ms jinks I think over all, inspite of our many mistakes, we hold some moral High ground agaisnt a country that teaches kids to hate Jews in school.

That has a drain in a large square for blood from beheading, hands removed, women whipped and beaten.

That doesn't allow women the most basic freedoms? A totally male male male run and dominated society.

I will take our less obvious restriction any day.
The basic premise of the west is that we are all born free and equal.

That's the basic yardstick that everything else has sprung up around.
Other countries don't subscribe to that basic premise especially when it comes to women.

Justanotherlurker · 26/08/2021 22:44

The central argument being that Afghanistan hasn't really ever functioned as a single entity and is instead made up of small vying power bases of tribes that don't have a central cause nor leader to unite around. And never really have. Its food for thought in a lot of ways.

I have to find it, but I did read that the one thing that did keep the tribes somewhat unified was the Afghan royals, again it was the generals that had Bush and Obamas hands tied by not letting them back into power and instead installing a puppet government.

This notion of instilling western values for women etc was essentially a CIA initiative to shore up support among western nations and American families sending their sons out to war.

Just like the old photos of Afghanistan, outside of the green zones or wealthy/city (in regards to the older photos's) things where no different in culture apart from the average age being reduced to ~25 because of killings either by western forces or Taliban/Isis.

NumberTheory · 26/08/2021 22:47

I think the withdrawal has been a shit show and the occupation since taking down the Taliban has not been as well handled as it could have been. But I don't think it's possible for the West to "liberate" the Afghani people. That sort of thing requires there to be a solid, committed fighting force within the people of Afghanistan who are prepared to stand up to the Taliban, and that seems to clearly not exist. If the West went back in it would be as an invading force pushing their choice of government on an only partially willing people. And that isn't liberation.

BittaOrange · 26/08/2021 22:48

@adawong

Are you volunteering to go? No, thought not.
This
patkinney · 26/08/2021 22:52

@Nandakanda

Should never have gone in there in the first place. It was George W Bush’s attempt to retaliate for 9/11 and was poorly conceived from the outset - Iraq too.

I remember seeing some old Afghan heads on Telly saying the foreigners will be gone in 20 years, and here we are.

Leave them to it along with all the silly notions of democracy, gender equality etc., which they just don’t get. And why should they?

Agree with this.

There is a guy writes in the papers, Rod Liddle, who rubs many people up the wrong way, but recently he wrote this on Afghanistan and and I think it's spot on:

"We were right to get the hell out of Afghanistan. We should never have gone in. Whenever we involve ourselves, for reasons of deluded enlightenment, in third world countries — and especially Islamic ones — it ends up badly for us and even worse for them. Always, without exception. We tell ourselves we are “helping” by bombing the people we do not approve of. But we always make things worse. It is an iron law: neoliberal intervention in the Middle East and beyond has been murderous and lethal, and it is no consolation to the dead, wounded and grieving that we had jolly good intentions and so sorry about the mess.

In Afghanistan 240,000 people, including 70,000 civilians, have been killed since the West’s helpful intervention. Then there are the thousands of US troops killed, not to mention the 457 British soldiers who lost their lives. Those figures are, of course, dwarfed by the death toll after our kindly invasion of Iraq — more than 450,000 locals killed in a war that led to the formation of Islamic State, and thus even more killing. Nowhere has ended up better off for our generous and lethal meddling — not Iraq nor Afghanistan, not Libya nor Syria nor Somalia...."

amiadillo · 26/08/2021 22:52

It's awful & I don't know what the solution is.