Can you be a good person if you pay for sex? [Content warning: descriptions of sexual abuse]

[Lave]

Do you think there's a grey area or are all men who pay for sex abusive?

All men who pay for sex view women's bodies as a buy-able commodity.

I think goodness is a difficult quality to pin down. I imagine in the past there were people who were very kind to the people of their community whilst owning slaves, or did great work for the poor while denying women the vote. They were kind within their own unacceptable belief system.

So I'd imagine someone could pay for sex while still being a generous employer and caring dad, but they would still think women's bodies are a commodity. I wouldn't want to be a friend or partner to someone with that view no matter how they behaved in other ways.

So I'd imagine someone could pay for sex while still being a generous employer and caring dad, but they would still think women's bodies are a commodity. I wouldn't want to be a friend or partner to someone with that view no matter how they behaved in other ways.

Yep.

One of my most problematic clients was a supposed upstanding family man, likable boss, commited father, popular at his theatre club.

He was also a misogynist, pervert and stalker.

Just like most aspects of life, it's not that simple. As a general rule to me it seems exploitative to pay for sex. But the devil is in the detail - if a person wants to make money in this way, not because of poverty, addiction, or lack of opportunity, plus is capable of understanding the implications, are they in fact playing the silly (usually) men with more money than sense?

I know a woman is this industry who (says she) loves her field of work and opening says if anything she's exploiting her customers who pay her £200 for an hour of her company to do what she admits she can't get enough of, sex. Before I met her I was pretty black and white on the issue but I now see it's shades of grey.

Exploitation, trafficking etc are major issues but it's not always the case

@Thisisworsethananticpated

I agree that life isn’t linear

Prositituion ranges from sex trafficked women from people who exercise free choice
Users range from misogynistic sociopaths to people who simply want to fuck

I think you can hate abuse and control whilst not necessarily thinking that the whole sector is wrong

If I wanted a fuck my choices are
Go with an ex ( baggage)
Shag someone I know (shitting where I eat)
Or use a male escort (weird but no baggage)

The human urge to fuck is strong

This whole post is

Agreed. Vile

This is a difficult one. Some men who seek out an escort girl, for example, are lonely. It's not always about sex and plenty of escorts work independently, ie there is no pimp involved, or they pay a small fee to an agency who vets the client.

Let's face it, nobody is 100% good.

Therefore I would say that some are basically good people but the entire business of paying for sex is extremely dodgy, tacky, unwholesome. I doubt any client would want to admit they have done it.

I know a woman is this industry who (says she) loves her field of work and opening says if anything she's exploiting her customers who pay her £200 for an hour of her company to do what she admits she can't get enough of, sex. Before I met her I was pretty black and white on the issue but I now see it's shades of grey.

I'm not sure we should be taking the word of active sex workers though, because often they/we say those things as if to only convince ourselves that it's true because the reality is too uncomfortable to face whilst we're in it. Virtually every woman I met when escorting said the same thing.

They're the ones in control, they're in it for the sex.

Only when I extracted myself from the situation was I able to view it objectively, and when I claimed those things I was lying to myself and others.

Of course it's possible that her version is her reality, but it's a narrative I span (and heard from others) so many times I'm dubious.

I would also bet that when she stops eventually she'll find that she has quite alot of trauma stemming from that era.

@RaindropsOnRosie

Not all sex workers are forced into the job, some enjoy it and have chosen it. If a man chooses to pay for sex with a sex worker who consents, I don't see a problem.

If she has had a decent childhood with no trauma, has had access to education and been encouraged to be ambitious, if there's no abusive and coercive men in the background and she has other opportunities for work and then still makes a choice to be a prostitute, then you might have a point.

I remember sitting in a women's refuge after I managed to leave my abusive ex and I was talking to another young woman living there, after starting to open up about the sex work I quickly backtracked and told her how I wasn't ashamed of what I did for a living and how it was quite empowering. More fool the punters if they had to pay for it etc.

The truth was I was bitterly ashamed but didn't want to look any more weak or damaged than I already did, the irony.

Pretending I was in control was a form of self preservation.

It wasn't until years later I was able to admit to what it was. Soul destroying.

I don’t understand how it difficult maggiesfarm

There is no grey area, why are men always given but or excuse why is the first thought not given to the women as to why they in this position in 1st place.

@Naaaaah

If she has had a decent childhood with no trauma, has had access to education and been encouraged to be ambitious, if there's no abusive and coercive men in the background and she has other opportunities for work and then still makes a choice to be a prostitute, then you might have a point.

And even then, the punter can't know that's the case, so he is still willing to run the risk he's paying for sex with an abused, coerced, trafficked woman. A risk he's willing to take in order to have sex. Vile isn't it?

@Lave

I remember sitting in a women's refuge after I managed to leave my abusive ex and I was talking to another young woman living there, after starting to open up about the sex work I quickly backtracked and told her how I wasn't ashamed of what I did for a living and how it was quite empowering. More fool the punters if they had to pay for it etc.

The truth was I was bitterly ashamed but didn't want to look any more weak or damaged than I already did, the irony.

Pretending I was in control was a form of self preservation.

It wasn't until years later I was able to admit to what it was. Soul destroying.

I’m so sorry you went through this. It’s amazing the excuses people will make for men, society is built around it. Personally I think you’re an inspiration. To find the strength to leave and to be working through your abuse, takes serious courage. The shame is not yours to bear. X

[quote youvegottenminuteslynn]@Naaaaah

If she has had a decent childhood with no trauma, has had access to education and been encouraged to be ambitious, if there's no abusive and coercive men in the background and she has other opportunities for work and then still makes a choice to be a prostitute, then you might have a point.

And even then, the punter can't know that's the case, so he is still willing to run the risk he's paying for sex with an abused, coerced, trafficked woman. A risk he's willing to take in order to have sex. Vile isn't it?[/quote]
It’s seems when people say ‘I think it’s fine as long as she’s not been coerced’, it’s purely lip service. They don’t actually believe the men have any responsibility to make sure of this. It’s probably somehow her fault for not being clear enough that she’s been trafficked or something.

Good and bad is very subjective. I personally do not think sex should be a commodity and cannot see I would ever want to be around people who provided or used professional sex services.

I think mostly it is abusive either historically or currently for individuals.

Was there ever a more misused term applied to girls and women than "empowered"?
Pole dancers, lap dancers, posing for mags, "high class call girls", prostitutes. I've heard all these so described.
OP, thank you for talking about your experiences. I hope that you can heal and move on, same to others on here with similar experiences.

@Naunet

It’s probably somehow her fault for not being clear enough that she’s been trafficked or something.

Or as someone staggeringly said upthread, being 'feeble women who can't say no to pimps." What a disgusting way to describe abused women.

The "happy hooker" myth is something men buy in to to justify what they do. Some do genuinely believe it and are in every other way decent "good" people. I think most of the time it's ignorance rather than tha they've thought too deeply about things.

I don't believe in good or bad people but I do think there's a spectrum and men who pay for sex are definitely up there on the spectrum of bad

Of course men who pay for sex are “bad people.” Is this even a question??? They’re the lowest if the low. Do they ever ask (or even think about) why the woman might be in that scenario? I mean, what kind of cognitive process is going on here? Yes, she might, on the surface, have agreed to that job at that moment in time for that money. But it’s not much of a stretch to speculate about the whole chain of circumstances that have led her into that kind of work in the first place. It’s not as if any woman, with reasonable options, just wakes up one day and thinks, “Oh I know... I’ll risk my mental and physical health to pander to the sexual needs of the most disgusting men in society. Yay go me...” And if women to manage to delude themselves they are making some kind of liberated choice to go into prostitution, well, the psychological damage will catch up with them soon enough. It’s similar being in an abusive family or relationship - you convince yourself it’s all ok - until it’s not. I was sexually abused by a family member for many years as a child, but even when it came out, people still didn’t want to see him as a “bad person.” No, he was just lonely and misguided apparently. Er, no he was a dangerous sociopath who did not see children as whole people - they only existed for his sick gratification. And he did it because I was there and he could. Simple as that. Men who go to prostitutes do it because they’re there and they can. Simple as that.

It does annoy me when women in prostitution do the whole “happy hooker” act because it reinforces the type of male entitlement that perpetrates so much abuse on so many levels. But I don’t blame the women at all because they are victims of a society that conditions women to pander to men.

Lave

You have my utmost respect coming here and sharing your experience and I hope in doing shows you also just how many more support you but also gives those who make excuses for men pause for thought.

Paid sex is rape. You cannot "buy" consent, it can only be freely given or it is not consent at all. What you are buying is silence from the victim.

I think that the men who buy sex are the lowest of the low.

No. You are an abusive and exploitative person if you pay for sex.

I would absolutely judge any man who is choosing to see prostitutes working for brothels, parlours, saunas or agencies. Ditto anyone who is seeing street workers. However, an independent escort, one who chooses her clients and works for herself and keeps all the money, no, I probably wouldn't judge the man for doing so as at least he has opted for a woman who is the only one benefiting from her being a sex worker rather than one who has been forced into it/is making money for others.

In prostitution, all 'high class' means is the person does not work on the streets. I am a part-time escort, or to use the current buzz word 'companion'. Given my high prices, I am very much high end but I do not use this descriptor at all and nor do I advertise myself in the way more escorts/prostitutes do. I do not use the cesspit that is Adultwork either. Money alone does not guarantee I will meet someone - men who wish to meet me have to supply government issued ID, employment credentials and references. This screens out the vast majority of men seeking paid sex and the most entitled/troublesome ones too.

In my experience, the men I see are paying for the no strings attached aspect of sex and for convenience. They want the woman to walk away afterwards and not hassle them for anything, but at the same time, they want me to make myself available if they want to see me. But, it must also be said that most men I see are paying for my time and attention. They want someone to talk to. They are men who are missing intimacy of some kind in their life and not just physical intimacy. Indeed, sex is a tiny part of our time together. (I feel I should add that I do not do role plays, wear uniforms or cater to fetishes. The sex is very much 'vanilla'.)

I realise I go very much against the grain, particularly my experiences. I have met someone really great men this way. But, I am, to a degree, lucky (for wont of a better word). I have total control over who I see and what we do. I turn down more men than I agree to meet. It is somewhat of a paradox that I am treated with far more respect and consideration by the men who pays for my time than I ever was in my actual dating life.

As an aside, I do not think I am empowered because I made this choice. If anything, I took this step because I needed the money and struggled to earn higher wages in my regular day-to-day job. However, I decided that if I was going to make money from transactional sex, then everything had to be done my way.

Anyway, Lave, I hope you work through everything

@Lave thanks for your honesty. Glad you got away from it.

The myth of the "happy hooker" indeed. The myth that the man is the one being exploited.
That the woman enjoys it, is in control, doing it to put herself through med school. That it could all be like a Pretty Woman fantasy

@Awwlookatmybabyspider

A single man or indeed women wanting sex doesn’t make them the devil, does it. Prostitution is one of the oldest professions in the world. I’d do it if I got desperate I’ve no issues with admitting to that. No disrespect but you can’t have it both ways provide a service then vilify people who use it.

Your less line speaks volumes. I can understand some people may be vulnerable or desperate but most of us have had a skint period in life. Weather you choose to turn to prostitution is a whole other matter.

People who are using the prostitution service themselves most likely have their own issues also