Can you be a good person if you pay for sex? [Content warning: descriptions of sexual abuse]

[Lave]

Do you think there's a grey area or are all men who pay for sex abusive?

It can work both ways

'SW like men enter into this for many different reason'

And men who sell sex as well. Obviously. Example being 'gay for pay' in porn. That must happen with those selling sex as well. Esp in certain countries where children are available.

'Drugs, addiction, poverty, cohesion, rape - I would imagine they would need enjoy the acts but doing it for other reasons.'

I assume you mean would not enjoy the acts.
If you're the person being penetrated and you are not into it, the risk of injury is higher. Just as a thought.

@MorriseysGladioli

Cross posts, *@nicegerbil*. No distinction; I should have been clearer - men and women. Perhaps some may have their interest piqued by a workmate, others will pay for any kind intimacy, and some will suffer in silence. All questionable things, but driven by a need.

Driven by a WANT.

In general those who have affairs are still having sex with their partner.

They tend to lie about that obv.

Which reminds me.

Can't remember the stat. But many men who pay for sex are in relationships and having sex with their partners.

The need for sex … as a need like eating, sleeping, money. Housing

Well, if they're doing it just because they want to, then they're just nasty bastards, but my point was that good people sometimes stray, for many complex reasons.

I believe it’s their need rather than want

So is this how you justify paedophilia in the clergy?

Utter twaddle with no scientific foundation. Asexual men exist you know. So do hands.

No point in arguing with the deluded however.

We've had a lovely chat about lonely men/ frustrated men etc. Paying for sex with women who are definitely not in any way under any pressure to do it.

The men miss intimacy and human contact etc.

They are kind and lovely etc.

Let's talk about the other men shall we?

The ones who aren't nice
Have no interest in anything other than what they want. Is she in pain? Does she show signs of injury? Could she be coerced/ trapped?
Could she be underage?
The men who are aggressive.
Violent.
The ones who enjoy knowing that she doesn't want it. She doesn't like it. It hurts.
The ones who find the power very exciting.

Etc etc

There are so many dodgy creepy men around. Scary men. Men who seem fine but push boundaries. Men who cajole, threaten, coerce. Men who don't like women, who think they need to be 'taken down a peg or 2'. Men who fetishise youth, inexperience. Men who enjoy causing pain, fear. Rapists. Abusers.

And on and on.

A depressingly large cohort of men. A minority but a substantial one.

The act of seeking s woman, arranging to see her, going through with it as it were. Loads of nice kind ordinary men would find that... Intimidating. An extreme thing to do.

Even the men I know who have paid for sex on stags, wouldn't do it here. It's for not usual life. It's seedy and a step they don't want to take.

That's common sense surely? Nice sensitive man seeking intimacy. Who is lonely. It's a big thing really.

So in general. How many of them vs how many who are simply. Anything from not very nice to extremely dangerous?

It's got a very high murder rate. Rape is not uncommon. Again. That's a no brainer right?

And around the world the situation is appalling in so many places.

All those who say yay! But of course I only mean the happy lovely side.

Is ignoring well. The reality I suppose. And thinking about it I've never on these threads seen a pro person say. Yes that's appalling so I'm doing xyz to try to help...

@Guavafish

The need for sex … as a need like eating, sleeping, money. Housing

A universal human right then.

As amnesty Ireland's draft on this topic said.

Are you sure?

Yes, you're welcome to take the lead in the discussion of the other men. (The majority, I would think) who get off on the whole seedy, abusive side of sex with women who are clearly doing it to get by, for whatever reasons, who are forced, coerced, trafficked.

At least for men (and I'm speaking as one).

Surprise surprise..

Of course a woman wouldn't come out with such bollocks, I should've known.

As long as the user has no reason to suspect the SW is acting out of coercion, they are free to engage SW's services.

Right, but that’s not the discussion.

The question posed is - can you be a good person if you pay for sex?

There are enough men (the majority, even possibly - not sure) who just wouldn’t do it. Which means it’s clearly not seen as a a neutral transaction for most people. Possibly even for ‘society’.

If it was a simple, neutral transaction - services in exchange for payment - there’d be little whore houses on every high street.

But, there aren’t. There are enough to service a tiny proportion of any given community.

Draw your own conclusions about the people who use them.

my argument is that since they do so willingly, there is nothing morally wrong with using these services.

Someone being there because they have no other choice is not there willingly. Someone who does not want to have sex with strangers for money but who has no way out of the situation is not there willingly. Lack of choice is not freedom, it is not consent, it is not freely given.

To be clear, by 'sex' I don't mean just an ejaculation, for that can easily me self-administered. What I mean is an intimate relationship with another person. This is as much a need as any other of our so called needs that help us thrive emotionally.

Yes because the majority of punters 'thrive emotionally'... really?!

You're clearly unwilling to understand the valid belief many of us hold, that the many reasons sex work is inherently dangerous for women, means it inherently bad for men to pay for sex work.

And to the people comparing to female punters paying for sex with male prostitutes... A male prostitute is highly, highly unlikely to be overpowered, beaten, raped etc by a female client. The same is not true of the reverse.

@UpstreamSwimmer

As long as the user has no reason to suspect the SW is acting out of coercion, they are free to engage SW's services.

Again, how can they know this? How can they reliably know this?

They can't. They are willing to take the risk so they can have sex with the prostitution in question.

A decent man wouldn't take that risk. Especially as it's more likely a prostitute isn't working independently.

Drugs, addiction, poverty, cohesion, rape - I would imagine they [SW] would need enjoy the acts but doing it for other reasons

But I’m sure some enjoy the sex. Therefore the effects, mental and physical, will depend on the SW and the reason for doing it

This is one of the most ridiculous things I have read on this thread ( and that’s saying something ). Are there really men out there who are stupid enough to claim that prostituted women and girls “ enjoy the sex”??

You are kidding me, right?

To use a well known MN phrase “ Are you on glue ? “.

But I’m sure some enjoy the sex. Therefore the effects, mental and physical, will depend on the SW and the reason for doing it.

Do you genuinely think this - that some enjoy the sex? Why?

PIV sex generally is, at best, pretty dull for most women.

Add to that, that a hugely significant cohort of men are not good at sex. Good at getting an orgasm, sure, but not good at sex. Even when having consensual ‘enjoyable’ sex with women they’re into.

Effort actually has to be made on the part of the man for sex to be enjoyable for a woman.

Do you genuinely believe a punter is going to be going to any effort?

A punter is among the cohort of men most like to be bad at sex (clearly, if he needs to pay for it), and least like to go to any effort - why should he, if he’s paying for it?

If it weren’t for the topic in question, that you think some sex workers ‘enjoy the sex’ @Guavafish, would almost be charmingly naive.

Just saw this in the news.

I know the answer will be well we're not talking about that.

But the fact is plenty of men don't know, don't want to know, don't care, or it adds something for them.

I don't know that anyone will. But those who are arguing well if it's like this what's the problem.

The problem is that the attached is not rare. And all over the world girls are going through what this woman talks about.

It's nothing to do with moral etc.

My reasons are because I have my eyes open and I find the massive amount of harm done unconscionable.

And the more it is 'normalised' the more demand there is and the more things are done that are appalling to feed the demand

Sex is NOT s need.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-57984924

Just watch the video at the beginning even if you don't read it.

@NiceGerbil

Interesting to get a real example!

Can I ask some questions? I'm assuming she's seeing men here sorry if that's not correct.

Does she stick to one for a while? IME for women it's better if you know what each other like (or in this case he does).

How does she find them? Do they come to her home, is she ever concerned for her safety?

Why not go out and get a random to shag and never see him again?

Why doesn't she have concern about their circs?

Does she worry about STDs?

Does she worry about blackmail/ robbery etc?

In the end she's just as bad.

I'm assuming your questions were for my and my friend's example. I honestly don't know the answer to a lot of them because I haven't asked. I feel very uncomfortable with sex work and have strong moral opinions about it but she's still my friend and I don't want her to feel too judged by me.

She had bad experiences with both men (and women, in the form of bullies) in her late teens/20s. She is not conventionally attractive, but is successful and has plenty of disposable income. She has never wanted a family. As far as I know, she uses an agency and always meets in hotels. It's not an every week thing, just a few times a year. She was very pragmatic about the ONS thing when asked by a different friend. She said she couldn't get to 'pick' a good looking man in a pub or by any conventional means. She picks someone she fancies and they are there at her convenience for the time. That's where the 'service' comparison was explained.

Like I said, it gives me the ick but people do all kinds of things I personally disagree with. I also used to work with a man who made it known that seeing prostitutes was normal for people with disabilities, such as himself. I felt quite sad for him.

I can't remember your username or post- no it wasn't aimed at anyone in particular. Well the posters who argue that the specific scenarios they are thinking of are fine, and want to separate that from the impacts of selling sex as a whole.

I saw it on the news and thought of this thread and posted it. Is all.

Oh sorry reading on- the women who pays!

Yes sorry will read more carefully. Thanks for trying to answer.

Urgh

'. I also used to work with a man who made it known that seeing prostitutes was normal for people with disabilities, such as himself. I felt quite sad for him.'

It's not it's what he tells himself.

The fact that so many men seem to come up with reasons why for them it's fine is interesting. People don't think of excuses as to why they pay for a haircut etc

@NiceGerbil

Urgh

'. I also used to work with a man who made it known that seeing prostitutes was normal for people with disabilities, such as himself. I felt quite sad for him.'

It's not it's what he tells himself.

The fact that so many men seem to come up with reasons why for them it's fine is interesting. People don't think of excuses as to why they pay for a haircut etc

I find it a difficult subject to think about in general. I had family members who were forced to do it, admittedly almost 100 years ago, and it makes me so sad to think that someone could be so out of options of ways to survive.

The chap I worked with said it's because there was little to no other way to have any sex because women weren't interested in him. He had cerebral palsy.

And? Loads and loads of people can't get laid.

People with disabilities can and do have relationships.

Also people with disabilities can still be horrible people.