Can you be a good person if you pay for sex? [Content warning: descriptions of sexual abuse]

[Lave]

Do you think there's a grey area or are all men who pay for sex abusive?

Also again to add this is a very small number and your average man wouldn’t be able to afford it.
It would be sensible to ban it because you can’t put a law in place saying that ‘only operate in X YZ conditions or with a minimum of £10000 dollars ) can youb

Lave.

And I'd still think just as badly of her clients as I would 0f those men using prostitutes at the other end of the scale.

No.

Maybe not abusive, but it’s definitely wrong in my opinion, you should only have sexual intercourse with someone you love! Not just for your own satisfaction, it is selfish and blurs the line between love and sex!

@CastawayQueen

He can though - if she has only a small number regular clients, dictates her hours, terms and conditions it’s quite clear that she’s doing it of her own volition.

But he can only know what she tells him when it comes to those things. So he can't know and that's the point. It's always a risk. A high end escort could have an abusive partner who organises for them to only have a small number of clients, dictates her hours and sets out the terms and conditions she then shares with punters. Yes, there will be some where that isn't the case but the man cannot know for sure and that's the crux of the issue for me. They're willing to risk that a woman is abused, coerced, trafficked etc. And more prostitutes are than aren't. A man willing to risk it cannot be a decent man IMO.

Some women pay for sex. Some sex workers do it because they genuinely love the job.

People who pay for sex without knowing the reasons the person is in that situation are bad. There should be no ambiguity, as drugs and trafficking are all too common.

Sex doesn't only have to be with someone you love, you can have good sex with a one night stand just as you can with a long term partner but all sex - including sex with someone you love - should be freely consenting and there shouldn't be an imbalance of power involved.

Nobody is entitled to sex.

Anyone who pays for it would disgust me.

@BlatantlyNameChanged

I know of one high end escort who is very upfront that she will only do 3 very specific positions. Is to be entertained at specific restaurants and have a certain amount of money deposited in her account every month. She is most definitely with all of those rules neither desperate nor trafficked.

Still at high risk of being beaten, raped, and/or murder though, isn't she?

Many many women every date and/or sleep with men they don’t know very well. They’re definitely at higher risk for all of the above than a high class hooker who knows her clients, who has exit plans / check ins to ensure that she doesn’t just disappear without a trace etc.

Considering prostitution is a high risk 'profession' (again, used very loosely) I'd say that a prostitute/escort is at a much higher risk than Jane from the nightclub who goes home with an anonymous one night stand. Not that Jane isn't also at risk but she's at less risk than the prostitute doing it on a regular basis and who is selling sex which some men, especially the type who use prostitutes, will consider their right because they're the customer. Do you think a man who decided he had a right to sex in a position other than the three she dictates would take no for an answer or give a shit about her exit plans?

Everyone on this thread seems to be very anti-sex worker and pro-mysogyny. Not all sex workers are feeble women who can't say no to pimps

No one on this thread, except you @RaindropsOnRosie is anti sex worker. They are mostly anti abuser and pro women.

I know that people like you enjoy trying to turn it around “ Well if you hate Johns you must hate women too”. It’s nonsense.

This thread is about men who abuse prostituted women. It must be hard to read what people actually think of you - rapists and abusers.

No one thinks that women who are prostituted are feeble. Not one person here has said that. On the contrary, they are strong otherwise they wouldn’t survive the shit show that is their lives. They are tough women doing what they can to survive.

It’s about the men who use them - they are the scum not the women.

The women are victims of an abusive system, of poverty, misogyny, addictions and dysfunctional relationships and families.

People who pay for sex without knowing the reasons the person is in that situation are bad

So the vast, vast majority then?

He can be sure she's doing it of her own volition though - if she has only a small number regular clients, dictates her hours, terms and conditions it’s quite clear that she’s doing it of her own volition.

Had you seen my adultwork profile you'd have been of the opinion that i was 'higher end' despite the fact I was just as damaged and vulnerable as one of the women you might drive past on a street corner offering her services for £50.

I saw few clients, only because I earned well enough for that to be the case.

I dictated my hours.

I had a number of 'terms and conditions'

My overnight rate was extortionate and my profile adorned with glossy platitudes about how I cater only to the more discerning clientele. Raving reviews about how eloquent and sophisticated I was.

It was all a load of bollocks.

@Naunet

People who pay for sex without knowing the reasons the person is in that situation are bad

So the vast, vast majority then?

Maybe in your universe

I’ve just had a quick Google and for all the pro sex work bollocks, I couldn’t find a single article or post sharing tips on how to check if a prostitute has been trafficked or coerced. That’s how much punters give a shit about who they’re sticking their dick into.

[quote youvegottenminuteslynn]@CastawayQueen

He can though - if she has only a small number regular clients, dictates her hours, terms and conditions it’s quite clear that she’s doing it of her own volition.

But he can only know what she tells him when it comes to those things. So he can't know and that's the point. It's always a risk. A high end escort could have an abusive partner who organises for them to only have a small number of clients, dictates her hours and sets out the terms and conditions she then shares with punters. Yes, there will be some where that isn't the case but the man cannot know for sure and that's the crux of the issue for me. They're willing to risk that a woman is abused, coerced, trafficked etc. And more prostitutes are than aren't. A man willing to risk it cannot be a decent man IMO.[/quote]
More prostitutes are that aren’t because there are very few high class escorts and the vast majority can’t afford them.
Also if the argument is ‘an abusive partner could have made them so it’ it applies to almost anything.
Just because some partners are abusive doesn’t mean that women should never marry.
So just because some ‘high class escorts’ (since that’s what we are discussing now) ‘could’ be abused - you can’t tell. So nobody should do it ever?

What occurs to me is the stigma attached to it.

I am a couple of years off sixty now and in the last decade I have encoutered difficulties with a very simple view of what is 'moral' and 'immoral' and what is 'right' and 'wrong'.

We are on mumsnet and looking back over my life since leaving my ex husband I encountered situations where I had to, or chose to do things in order to survive as realistically I saw no other choice and in order to ensure that I had enough money to bring my DD up.

I'm not talking about breaking the law here, or sex work, but other situations.

I consider myself fortunate that i never had to make that choice (to do sex work), but can totally and utterly see how in the present climate of austerity particularly women might turn to sex work in the absence of other choices or help.

I feel this is a crying shame. I don't think there will be many sex workers whose life goal or dream was to end up doing sex work, instead of maybe having the chance to get a job with decent training and prospects, or even go to college.

Many must feel trapped and just dealing with the day to day I should think, just getting by.

I noticed something in the press a while back about how women were turning to sex work to pay back pay day loans and got caught up in it that way.

There are also those under age girls and boys who are coerced.

As far as the 'johns' are concerned, there you have so-called 'middle/upper class morality' turned on it's head.

I guess for a very long time centuries even men with money large amounts or smaller amounts have not considered themselves as doing anything wrong when paying for sex. And these have been Members of Parliament, high ranking officials, church clergy probably...

So in coming up with values to live by perhaps I would say from my own experience,

no one knows what they would do until they have been 'tested'.

Meaning we should not judge another until we have been in their shoes.

And I do believe that we all deserve fresh starts in life.

I too wish you all the best for your healing.

Speak to yourself as a kind and caring mother might.

*to clarify, I mean an article or post aimed at punters, rather than health workers etc.

No grey area in Paid rape

All the abuse apologists pop up on these threads and try to make it all about some movie they have watched about women who just love sex and make millions from their 5 star hotel in London’s west end blah blah blah. It’s all nonsense.

No one wants to talk about the women giving BF to filthy men up a back alley for a tenner to buy a bag of H or some benzos. Or the trafficked teenager being anally raped several times a night for months until she’s incontinent.

My husband paid for sex once in Amsterdam. He was probably about 22 at the time maybe. I think he felt he had to join in with the lads sort of thing, and severely wished he hadn't.

It's so odd because although I did know him then, I still can't see any connection between that person and the man I know today.

Not making excuses for him, just saying how I feel. I don't know what he thinks about it looking back - I'd rather not get into a discussion about it now tbh. It makes me feel weird to think of him making such a decision.

We've had loads of discussions about feminism since having a daughter and since the trans debate began, and I'd say we've both come out of it much more certain of where we stand when it comes to women's rights.

BJ

Nope. Just makes me picture a desperate letch who couldn’t find a woman willing to fuck him so had to pay someone. Grim.

@CastawayQueen

Also if the argument is ‘an abusive partner could have made them so it’ it applies to almost anything. Just because some partners are abusive doesn’t mean that women should never marry.

I legitimately don't understand what you're trying to say here so not sure how to respond.

So just because some ‘high class escorts’ (since that’s what we are discussing now) ‘could’ be abused - you can’t tell. So nobody should do it ever?

That is my belief, yes. I think it is always wrong to pay for sex because you cannot tell.