Can you be a good person if you pay for sex? [Content warning: descriptions of sexual abuse]

[Lave]

Do you think there's a grey area or are all men who pay for sex abusive?

@Maggiesfarm

This is a difficult one. Some men who seek out an escort girl, for example, are lonely. It's not always about sex and plenty of escorts work independently, ie there is no pimp involved, or they pay a small fee to an agency who vets the client.

Let's face it, nobody is 100% good.

Therefore I would say that some are basically good people but the entire business of paying for sex is extremely dodgy, tacky, unwholesome. I doubt any client would want to admit they have done it.

Agencies don't vet clients, why would they when doing so would mean they are potentially missing out on commission - agencies take anywhere between 30-60% of the fee. Agencies are just as exploitative and amoral as pimps and traffickers.

@CoraPearl

However, an independent escort, one who chooses her clients and works for herself and keeps all the money, no, I probably wouldn't judge the man for doing so as at least he has opted for a woman who is the only one benefiting from her being a sex worker rather than one who has been forced into it/is making money for others.

But because a man cannot know if a woman has been coerced, abused or trafficked, he is running the risk that she is. Whether she appears to be independent or not, he cannot know what the reality of her situation is. So again, he's willing to run the risk. I do not believe a decent man would take that risk.

“This is a difficult one....”

No, it’s really not. Being “lonely” is no excuse for sexual abuse.

@cutebutscary

I think often they are just sad or lonely or both .

How do you square that with the married ones who do it? there have been enough threads on here from women who have found out their partners have done it/do it that it's not a total rarity.

I think they are utter scum bags

Ive name changed for this. I worked as an independent escort for about a year. At the time I'd have said it was a choice... I was in control etc. But in reality it was an experience I'll never recover from.

In many ways it was better than how I was before... I was sleeping with men I met on nights out, OLD etc, for free so moving to escorting where men were giving me more respect than my one night stands were seemed like a power move,

I looked down my nose at friends giving sex away for free and revelled in wealthy men paying for my time, buying me gifts, respecting my boundaries etc,.

But as time went on my standards slipped, drinking played a bigger part in getting through the difficult meets. I started to disassociate with what I was doing. I lied to friends and family because let's face it - society doesn't accept sex workers.

My landlord found out what I was doing and I lost my home.

There were a few occasions where I took every precaution but ended up fearing for my safety.

I don't think men realise what they're doing and would be shocked to hear how badly their behaviour affected the escort. All of my clients would have said I enjoyed what I did and was paid well. So I don't blame the men as such for believing what they're told

Yeah.
I mean, I think all men who pay for sex clearly believe there are some circumstances in which a woman’s consent doesn’t matter.
I wouldn’t date anyone who paid for sex.

I think it becomes a grey area when it comes to people that might not be able to have sex otherwise, like disabled people.

In that instance it's a hard question. But I also don't think everyone that pays is abusive. Some will be, of course but not all of them. And women book them too, look at Lily Allen.

Didn't Katy Price talk about booking a prostitute for Harvey for his 18th? Did she actually do that? In his case I wouldn't see that as acceptable because he has learning difficulties so might not understand.

@heathermaleather

You also have my respect for coming here and being honest in sharing your experience.

@3Britnee

I think it becomes a grey area when it comes to people that might not be able to have sex otherwise, like disabled people.

In that instance it's a hard question. But I also don't think everyone that pays is abusive. Some will be, of course but not all of them. And women book them too, look at Lily Allen.

Didn't Katy Price talk about booking a prostitute for Harvey for his 18th? Did she actually do that? In his case I wouldn't see that as acceptable because he has learning difficulties so might not understand.

That’s offensive to disabled people, being disabled does not justify paid rape

Being disabled does not trump or give free pass to abuse - rape women! No one is entitled to sex

My ex used prostitues and left reviews on UK punting. That's how I found out...after we split up.

He was an abusive narcissist. He has mummy issues and I think deeply hates women. The things he said online were disgusting.

Bodies should not be rented.

@Lave you sound like you're making sense of your experiences. Keep moving forward

@3Britnee

I think it becomes a grey area when it comes to people that might not be able to have sex otherwise, like disabled people.

In that instance it's a hard question. But I also don't think everyone that pays is abusive. Some will be, of course but not all of them. And women book them too, look at Lily Allen.

Didn't Katy Price talk about booking a prostitute for Harvey for his 18th? Did she actually do that? In his case I wouldn't see that as acceptable because he has learning difficulties so might not understand.

No-one has a right to sex. Women are not service animals to provide sex to those who cannot find anyone who will consent. This is the same argument as "comfort" women. @heathermaleather thank you for speaking out.

I think it becomes a grey area when it comes to people that might not be able to have sex otherwise, like disabled people.

Because all disabled people are abnormal members of society unable to get a date due to being disabled...

And even for disabled people, there is no right to sex or to pay for sex. You don't get to override freely given consent just because you have a disability.

@BlatantlyNameChanged

I think it becomes a grey area when it comes to people that might not be able to have sex otherwise, like disabled people.

Because all disabled people are abnormal members of society unable to get a date due to being disabled...

I'm glad someone else was as offended by this as me.

And the fact that women do not exist to set aside their rights for those of other adults.

Thank you for the kind comments PP's.

With regards to the debate on whether or not it's ok for disabled people to buy the services of sex workers, I don't think having a disability makes it any more ok.

I can distinctly remember 2 disabled clients I had, one man was in a wheelchair and the other deaf. They weren't nice people is all I'll say about them.

It makes me uncomfortable to think of them justifying their ill treatment of women with the fact they're disabled.

I'm disturbed by the comment about Katie price wanting to hire somebody to have sex with Harvey for his 18th birthday aswell. As the parent of an autistic son I'm appalled that anybody would think it's ok to choose when their child has sex when they lack capacity to the extent that Harvey does, let alone pay for it on their behalf. I think that's abusive.

When I was active I would have never agreed to such a booking, even if it meant I had the shit kicked out of me by my then boyfriend.

@0DETTE

All the abuse apologists pop up on these threads and try to make it all about some movie they have watched about women who just love sex and make millions from their 5 star hotel in London’s west end blah blah blah. It’s all nonsense.

No one wants to talk about the women giving BF to filthy men up a back alley for a tenner to buy a bag of H or some benzos. Or the trafficked teenager being anally raped several times a night for months until she’s incontinent.

This. All this.

@CoraPearl, do you mind me asking if the men you see who are lacking intimacy and someone to talk to are ever capable of truly engaging with you fully in conversation? I mean can you disagree or be critical? Or do you feel you always need to be 'agreeable' and allow them to use your social/verbal skills as they use your sexual ones? As you say you have a certain degree of independence but to keep your clients you must have to act out engagement when you may not feel it?

What interests me about that is how can the men have any self respect knowing they are paying for a listening ear as much as a body? I am a socially isolated unattratactive, poor , old, fat female and cannnot conceive of any way I would feel less than humiliated to know the person talking to me or providing sexual services is doing so because they are paid. I suppose that is one of the drivers behind many men's anger and (emotional/physical/verbal) violence towards women. Resentment.

Bit strange perhaps but my daughter (adhd) is a similar age to Harvey price and has often said she finds him very sweet and would love to meet him in a dating capacity. It's offensive that Katie (if it's true) would suggest she'd have to pay a woman to have sex with him

[quote youvegottenminuteslynn]@CoraPearl

However, an independent escort, one who chooses her clients and works for herself and keeps all the money, no, I probably wouldn't judge the man for doing so as at least he has opted for a woman who is the only one benefiting from her being a sex worker rather than one who has been forced into it/is making money for others.

But because a man cannot know if a woman has been coerced, abused or trafficked, he is running the risk that she is. Whether she appears to be independent or not, he cannot know what the reality of her situation is. So again, he's willing to run the risk. I do not believe a decent man would take that risk. [/quote]
A man can know if he takes time, effort and care to find and choose an escort who is truly independent. But yes, most don't care, and choose according to price and services. Those kinds of men are not going to opt to see someone like me anyway as they don't want to submit credentials and ID.

Serious question @CoraPearl, how can a man really know if a prostitute is genuinely 'truly independent'? There is no way of definitively knowing, there's no effort he could make or research he could do to guarantee it. And therefore he is always taking a risk of being complicit in the abuse of a woman. Always.

I think it becomes a grey area when it comes to people that might not be able to have sex otherwise, like disabled people

It’s only a grey area if you believe on some level that men have a right to access women’s bodies.

It's not my views. There's been programmes about it. I couldn't care less what people do 🤷‍♀️

@3Britnee

It's not my views. There's been programmes about it. I couldn't care less what people do 🤷‍♀️

To be fair you did say "I think..." and "I don't think..." in your post so it was a fair assumption people made that you were discussing your own opinions.

CoraPearl, thanks for answering my questions, I was not meaning to be argumentative or offensive to you, just curious . In fact I was going to suggest that you seem to be operating more like a Courtesan. I believe the social circumstances and conventions of that time acted as a kind of guarantor for the women involved with rich men. The poor of course did what the poor do always. I have lived for many years close to someone who does ocassional escort work, I have never discussed the whys with her though I suspect drug use plays a large part in her life so I know circumstances can vary a lot as you obviously do too.

My comments about feeling humiliated if I paid for company social or sexual were more in relation to the ''what about the sad old sacks who can only be in contact with a woman by paying comments. yeah it's sad so are a lot of situations. It never excuses the abuse of anyone.

It always reminds me of when I was young , we'd be advised to avoid injuring a man's ego by rejecting, arguing or criticising him. I always wondered well what about my ego? But I knew the answer to that.