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Can you be a good person if you pay for sex? [Content warning: descriptions of sexual abuse]

582 replies

Lave · 18/07/2021 14:15

Do you think there's a grey area or are all men who pay for sex abusive?

OP posts:
UpstreamSwimmer · 27/07/2021 00:11

@NiceGerbil

What about paying...

Nobody is saying there aren't cases where using a prostitute is clear abuse and exploitation, nor that there aren't horrible men who use prostitutes (and for whom it's solely about power).

The question posed in the OP was whether there was anything inherently abusive in engaging the services of a willing sex worker. Let's say poor women in a waitress job decides she could make her weekly wage in a few hours by opening an OnlyFans or by turning tricks, and she decides to go for it of her own volition, are those who use her services abusive? And why?

Guavafish · 27/07/2021 00:41

Sex is an important need for men. More so than women.

I have read many threads on this website where men are arguing with female partners due to lack of sex..

Is it is the 21st century but it doesn’t change biology or the human nature. And for most men sex is an important need…if you look at Maslow triangle of needs .. once the basics are meet then the next important need is intimacy. I know its very hard for women to understand and they may never understand it as a need.

BlatantlyNameChanged · 27/07/2021 01:01

Intimacy isn't the same as sex and you'll sure as shit aren't going to get intimacy from a prostitute. "We're biologically wired to want sex more than women do" is a cop out and does not justify what is essentially rape - paid for consent is not consent, no consent is rape.

Guavafish · 27/07/2021 01:09

Who is justifying anything?

I’m trying to understand why men disproportionately paid for sex, watch pornography, paid for webcams?

I think men see sex and acts of sex as an important need. Of course it’s not all men. Hence why they can pay for it.

UpstreamSwimmer · 27/07/2021 01:12

paid for consent is not consent, no consent is rape.

This is patently false and no amount of repeating it will make it true.

To be clear, I'm not justifying engaging sex workers because men are wired etc. On the contrary, I don't think any justification is needed. As long as the user has no reason to suspect the SW is acting out of coercion, they are free to engage SW's services. A transaction into which both parties freely enter, is 100% consensual.

NiceGerbil · 27/07/2021 01:16

My comments:

Regarding the sex/need issue, indeed as you noted I've never said it's a need. It most certainly is an extremely strong urge and drive, and men as a class can be swayed by sex or the promise thereof.

Not all by any means. I know we often and you specify class terms and that's a good basis generally. However in this conversation the fact that there are a good number of men who don't feel/ feel but don't act in that way. The portrayal of men with these conversations is deeply around stereotypes of a particular type of masculinity. And the number of men who aren't that way is not small enough to ignore IMO.

Eg men who

Want an emotional connection with their partner
Are uncomfortable with one offs. Because of things like shyness, religion, personal feelings of what's right/ wrong, a knowledge that it would in the end make them feel crap about themselves, concern about the industry, finding the idea seedy/ desperate/ sad, low sex drive, asexuality (talked about a lot at the mo), being an old school romantic (men used to pine and write poetry etc I'm sure they've not vanished!), being concerned about STDs Pregnancy.

I know there are men who would not drop their trousers and dive in because well. Any hole's a goal.

'As with all generalities, there are those for whom this statement will be either more or less valid, but as a generality it holds water. You only have to see how many men have risked/lost everything for a lay (when cheating on their OH for example).'

Women cheat as well.

'And while you may counter that this is because those men were arseholes, it is still the case that the medium through which they stumbled was sex.'

People are people. Relationships are complex. If the woman isn't single then it's the same both ways.

'Truth be told this isn't simply due to such men being disgusting, but it's an actual biological drive. No different than any other species which has the instinctive urge to procreate and propagate its seed. So of course nobody is saying 'men' can't keep it in their pants, but as a generality, it is extremely difficult.'

Women have sex drives as well you know! Around the world our sexual behaviour is controlled and judged in a way men's is not. We also have more risk- pregnancy, rape, these days risks around being filmed and pasted all over the net. The consequences of sexual activity with the 'wrong' bloke or at the 'wrong' time range from boys and sometimes girls at school calling you awful names and bullying you, to being raped, murdered, imprisoned etc. This all makes us understandly rather more cautious.

'Now coming back to the 'need' question, we would first have to define 'need'. If it is simply that which without having it we would die, then no, sex isn't a need.'

A PP likened it to food. Amnesty Ireland had a policy proposal that referred to sex as a right/ human right (see old threads). In general in human rights stuff etc certain needs should be met. Viewing sex as a need needs to be approached with caution given eg amnesty.

'But if you broaden out the term to mean whatever is necessary for one to be physically and emotionally happy and healthy, then sex is a need. At least for men (and I'm speaking as one).'

It's a want not a need.
And where is the consideration of the physical and emotional happiness of the seller? Is theirs less important? Is that s fair exchange? Also. Sounds different to mowing a lawn to me.

'To be clear, by 'sex' I don't mean just an ejaculation, for that can easily me self-administered. What I mean is an intimate relationship with another person. This is as much a need as any other of our so called needs that help us thrive emotionally.''

Intimacy? That's a big ask. Relationship??? The women are being paid to be fucked. The vast majority do not like the men. They do not like the men. Plenty hate the men. How can anyone see that as emotionally enriching intimacy? They are acting. They are working.

And that's one hell of a service just the same as doing warehouse work, surely?

Guavafish · 27/07/2021 01:16

Sex is intimacy

NiceGerbil · 27/07/2021 01:17

Sorry took me ages to write bedtime in the middle.

Need to catch up.

NiceGerbil · 27/07/2021 01:28

How can we know about women's sex drives v men's in a world which has massively different attitudes to sexual activity in the sexes? And can have such massively different consequences for women?

Have you lot never met any of the very common randy middle aged women around the place???

Do women not have such demanding sex drives?

Or do they look different?

In addition to my points above about risk etc.

I would add.

Most men are shite in bed. Esp on a ONS where he's not even going to bother.

We have cycles - it's up and down. Around ovulation many women are very... Interested !

We have certain life events that effect it. More up and down.

Pregnancy. Breastfeeding. Birth injury. Etc.

On top of the fact that so many threads on here the woman isn't interested because the man is being a total arse.

I read a study (there's always a study!) that in long term relationships men tend to be happy with sex all through. While women get bored with it.

Upstream you might be interested in reading testosterone rex. Seriously. It's a good book and very interesting. Whether you think some or none makes sense it's worth s read.

Because you say men just have this urge to fuck.
But then you're talking about human connection. Relationship. Intimacy.

The book has interviews with men and it turns out it's a thing. For men to buy sex but what they really want is something else. Maybe for men sex is the way many think to experience intimacy?

I mean I don't know. Just a few thoughts.

NiceGerbil · 27/07/2021 01:30

What I would point out upstream is you FLATLY REFUSED to try and put yourself in the shoes of someone selling sex because they were desperate for money.

And yet now you're expecting others to be empathetic and understanding towards those who pay for sex.

Maybe have s think about that. It's revealing, surely.

Guavafish · 27/07/2021 01:30

@NiceGerbil

I don’t believe all men are they same and only a small portion of men pay for regular sex. I’m discussing only this small portion.

Of course men pay for sex for different reason ..it’s not complicated, different women, reduces risk of boredom, sex when you need and want it, it’s thrilling and they enjoy it. I still think these men see it as a need. Hence why they can pay.

UpstreamSwimmer · 27/07/2021 01:34

*Not all by any means. I know we often and you specify class terms and that's a good basis generally. However in this conversation the fact that there are a good number of men who don't feel/ feel but don't act in that way. The portrayal of men with these conversations is deeply around stereotypes of a particular type of masculinity. And the number of men who aren't that way is not small enough to ignore IMO.

Eg men who

Want an emotional connection with their partner
Are uncomfortable with one offs. Because of things like shyness, religion, personal feelings of what's right/ wrong, a knowledge that it would in the end make them feel crap about themselves, concern about the industry, finding the idea seedy/ desperate/ sad, low sex drive, asexuality (talked about a lot at the mo), being an old school romantic (men used to pine and write poetry etc I'm sure they've not vanished!), being concerned about STDs Pregnancy.

I know there are men who would not drop their trousers and dive in because well. Any hole's a goal.*

There are many men, perhaps even the majority of men, who wouldn't just dive in at the drop of a hat. That's true. But the vast majority of men can be lured by sex appeal. They'll stop and talk to a pretty chugger (charity mugger) when they wouldn't have given a male one the time of day, they'll be willing to help carry stuff for women etc.

This is even men who wouldn't dream of actually doing anything with said woman. Yet the biological instinct still pulls them to do stuff they wouldn't otherwise do. That's what I meant about sex being an extremely powerful urge.

As to needs vs wants, it comes down to how you define a need. If it's merely about survival, then the argument could be made that all human interaction is a want. But most people would see it as a need. Anyway, I'm not arguing semantics, what I'm saying is that sex (at least for men), is almost on par with human interaction.

NiceGerbil · 27/07/2021 01:36

They can pay because there are men and women (and boys and girls) available to buy. Surely.

NiceGerbil · 27/07/2021 01:36

Sex is intimacy

For those being paid?

UpstreamSwimmer · 27/07/2021 01:40

@NiceGerbil

What I would point out upstream is you FLATLY REFUSED to try and put yourself in the shoes of someone selling sex because they were desperate for money.

And yet now you're expecting others to be empathetic and understanding towards those who pay for sex.

Maybe have s think about that. It's revealing, surely.

You keep coming back to whether I would or wouldn't sell sex, but I refuse to engage because it's irrelevant. The fact is there are people (women and men) who do agree to sell sexual services. And my argument is that since they do so willingly, there is nothing morally wrong with using these services.

And nowhere have asked for empathy and understanding. What I wrote was an academic exercise, just to explain why things are how they are. But I'm not asking for any empathy.

My posts here are about the cut and dry question of whether it's moral to use sexual services that are being sold willingly. That's it. Anything else is a distraction.

NiceGerbil · 27/07/2021 01:41

They'll stop and talk to a pretty chugger (charity mugger) when they wouldn't have given a male one the time of day, they'll be willing to help carry stuff for women etc

As women and older girls will be more likely to stop for an attractive young man...

And for sure if a smiling good looking man say. Asks me for a cigarette.

Then he's very likely indeed to get one. And I'll light it for him too!

We seem to have veered off into a conversation focussed on men and how they feel about sex.

And churning out 'facts' about male v female sexual behaviour which I mean we can all chat about. But in the end in the world as it is, no one really knows.

And the focus is off the well known massive harms that selling sex results in.

MorriseysGladioli · 27/07/2021 01:42

I think "good" people can do all manner of questionable things.
I often see women on here saying they thought their relationship was good, even though they haven't had sex for 5 years.
To me, that is also a questionable thing to do, to know that there is a gaping chasm in terms of closeness, and allow it to carry on that way.

NiceGerbil · 27/07/2021 01:47

Although a few observations.

If men want sex way more than women. And a woman's job is to have sex with men, possibly multiple times a day.
Then logically she's not happy with it. Is she.

  1. If a point of paying for sex is to feel connected, intimacy. For the buyer. And that's important for physical and emotional health. What of the effect on the person being paid? In terms of their emotional and physical health?

Also what about the point that asking others to understand and empathise with the buyers while refusing to even try to empathise with the sellers is hypocritical.

Guavafish · 27/07/2021 01:48

@MorriseysGladioli

I think "good" people can do all manner of questionable things. I often see women on here saying they thought their relationship was good, even though they haven't had sex for 5 years. To me, that is also a questionable thing to do, to know that there is a gaping chasm in terms of closeness, and allow it to carry on that way.
I agree… sex in relationship is the glue (not all) and when it been absent for so long.. and they are surprised their partner has been cheating 🤷‍♂️
NiceGerbil · 27/07/2021 01:49

@MorriseysGladioli

I think "good" people can do all manner of questionable things. I often see women on here saying they thought their relationship was good, even though they haven't had sex for 5 years. To me, that is also a questionable thing to do, to know that there is a gaping chasm in terms of closeness, and allow it to carry on that way.
Yikes.

The partner can leave if they wish

I thought lie back and think of England was dying out.

NiceGerbil · 27/07/2021 01:50

And the women who complain no sex?

Plenty of those threads as well...

MorriseysGladioli · 27/07/2021 01:52

I thought a relationship was about working through issues, not sweeping them under the carpet.
To me, it's fairly obvious that unless both are happy to live as housemates then Somethings gotta give.
Of course, I've seen women post about how utterly lonely and sad they feel that their partner is no longer interested in them, too.

Guavafish · 27/07/2021 01:55

@NiceGerbil

Although a few observations.

If men want sex way more than women. And a woman's job is to have sex with men, possibly multiple times a day.
Then logically she's not happy with it. Is she.

  1. If a point of paying for sex is to feel connected, intimacy. For the buyer. And that's important for physical and emotional health. What of the effect on the person being paid? In terms of their emotional and physical health?

Also what about the point that asking others to understand and empathise with the buyers while refusing to even try to empathise with the sellers is hypocritical.

SW like men enter into this for many different reason

Drugs, addiction, poverty, cohesion, rape - I would imagine they would need enjoy the acts but doing it for other reasons.

But I’m sure some enjoy the sex. Therefore the effects, mental and physical, will depend on the SW and the reason for doing it.

NiceGerbil · 27/07/2021 01:56

Everyone's relationships are different.

Many/ most are not 100% operating on how it should be done at all times.

If either partner is not happy they can leave.

And we're heading way off topic here!

MorriseysGladioli · 27/07/2021 01:56

Cross posts, @nicegerbil.
No distinction; I should have been clearer - men and women.
Perhaps some may have their interest piqued by a workmate, others will pay for any kind intimacy, and some will suffer in silence.
All questionable things, but driven by a need.

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